On latino immigration Samuel huntington's Who are We

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by futbolrey, Nov 30, 2004.

  1. futbolrey

    futbolrey New Member

    Dec 20, 2002
    Burke, Va
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1169410,00.html

    "Huntington quotes Fox's claim, presumably not repeated in Texas at the weekend, that he is the president of 123 million Mexicans - 100 million in Mexico and 23 million in the US - as proof that the reconquista is well under way; that the Latinos, and in particular the Mexicans, have no intention of assimilating but instead represent a mass fifth column, intent on dismantling the nation."

    "The spread of Spanish, he argues with an impressive command of the conditional clause, "could, in due course, have significant consequences in politics and government - those aspiring to political office might have to be fluent in both languages ... government documents and forms could routinely be published in both languages ... the use of both languages could become acceptable in congressional hearings ... [and] English speakers lacking fluency in Spanish are likely to be and feel at a disadvantage in the competition for jobs."


    discuss latino immigration to the US.
     
  2. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Your opinion of Samuel Huntington's thesis depends on which group you think shapes the culture:

    * An permanent underclass who achieve almost no upward mobility as long as they don't speak the language of those with money and power.

    * Those who do speak the language of money and power.

    If you don't speak anything but Spanish in the United States, there are definite limits to your upward mobility. How many lawyers, doctors, engineers, and other well-paid professionals speak nothing but Spanish in the United States? How many politicians? How many corporate leaders?

    Huntington is right to a certain extent when he points out that people who speak only English will be at a disadvantage to those who speak both English and Spanish, but I would point out that such a disadvantage is the professional world is still a slight disadvantage. Never mind that being fluent in multiple languages is hardly a bad thing. And of course, he doesn't really address the flip side of that: People who speaks only Spanish will be at a HUGE disadvantage to those who speak both languages. And that speaks to a fact that those of us who have grown up in the Southwest have known for all of our lives:

    If you want to get anywhere in this country, then you have to pass through a gate labeled, "Being able to speak English." It's the reason why commercials and infomercials for "Learn English at home" tapes are so prevalent on Spanish-language TV.

    Sure, you can survive in the USA only speaking Spanish. Many, many, many people do. But you will not prosper.

    So I said all of that to say that I think that Samuel Huntington is full of crap on this issue. The American culture will be influenced by its Mexican and Latin American immigrants and will continue on. Just look at the Southwest. While it's a relatively new phenomenon in the rest of the country, Hispanics have always been the largest minority group here. And yet, how different has our culture been from the rest of the country?
     
  3. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I'm doing my part to assimilate those motherfuckers... I married a Latina immigrant, put baby up in her, and I'll be damned if the little son-of-a-bitch didn't pop out with blond hair and blue eyes. Sure, he speaks Spanish, but he watches Big 12 college football on the weekends.

    Now it's YOUR turn.
     
  4. DJPoopypants

    DJPoopypants New Member

    Jeez, well it sure doesn't help that Bush is outsourcing so many important jobs to those sneaky south of the border furriners...first Ashcroft, now the commerce secretary...
     
  5. entropy

    entropy Member

    Aug 31, 2000
    District of Calamity
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nice ripoff of one of last week's headlines from The Onion.
     
  6. Blitzz Boy

    Blitzz Boy Member

    Apr 4, 2002
    The West Side
    I don't think that Huntington believes most of the stuff he writes. He's a Wind Up Artist. I think he's really the guy started the "Latinos are ruining football" thread on World Rivalries.

    Being hit in the back with a tray of nachos bites. But there is some evidence that the "Massive Fifth Column" is just another Wind Up and not a very good one at that. I wonder if Huntington ever did anything like these guys in the link below did?

    http://www.inficad.com/~1stbooks/medal2.htm

    My solution to the language problem is to speak Spanish so badly that Latinos are motivated to learn English so they don't have to listen to me slaughter their language.

    However, the Federal Reserve Board; an institution not known for nativism & racism, did publish a study saying that low-skilled immigrants (all of them, not just Latinos) do lower incomes for low-skilled US-born citizens.
     
  7. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    I'm particularly worried about the nuevocons.
     
  8. Garcia

    Garcia Member

    Dec 14, 1999
    Castro Castro
    Talk about child abuse!
     
  9. DoctorJones24

    DoctorJones24 Member

    Aug 26, 1999
    OH
    True, that would have been easier, and just as accurate. But your explanation was better.
     
  10. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Chivas USA sucks slightly more than all other MLS teams, except the MetroStars, who suck the most.
     
  11. Dammit!

    Dammit! Member

    Apr 14, 2004
    Mickey Mouse Land
    The lack of a border and serious controls on immigration is just craziness.

    What the hell is going on here?

    The Dems and the Reps are way out there on this issue. Is it just courting the hispanic vote? Or something else? Business exerting its power?

    8% of people in California are illegal immigrants. How many people can use the same social security number before we catch on?

    The only way to do it, IMO, is to crack down on employers. They have to be responsible for ensuring legal work status.
     
  12. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    GringoTex is from the Big 12 South...pity my son, being raised against his will in a Nebraska Huskers household.
     
  13. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, I think the Republican president, Senate, and House are sure to crack down on businesses' ability to exploit cheap labor in order to boost profits and stock dividends.
     
  14. Dammit!

    Dammit! Member

    Apr 14, 2004
    Mickey Mouse Land
    And neither would a Democratic president, Senate, and House.
     
  15. depor15

    depor15 Member

    Jun 28, 1999
    The abilty to speak Spanish does not make one proficient in the language. Sure it will help, but unless someone has the ability to read & write in a language they are not truely bilingual. See how far you Spanglish will get you in doing any type of formal business with someone in Latin America or Spain. I will grant that it might help but not enough.
    I think that is one of the probelms that alot of educators in this country were missing the point on a few years ago and many still are not getting. Many of the immigrants to this country from Latin America, like those from Europe years ago are coming here with very little education in their own language. Most people with higher education in those copuntries live well in their own country and do not come to the US. Sure there are some that come, but they do not make up the majority.

    Like I say to some of my friends who consider themeselves conservatives and make the complain that this is America everything should be in English. I tell them you don't realize that writing something for someone in Spanish who cannot read it really does them no good anyway. It is a big business and political thing.
     
  16. Garcia

    Garcia Member

    Dec 14, 1999
    Castro Castro
    This is a solid point to make.
    I have helped in local ESL classes and am fluent in both Spanish/English. The lack of formal education in Latino America for these workers only makes things worse. The age does also. The young, worker aged males think class is fun time. Exceptions do exist, but before we demand these folks to learn English and everything "American" these folks need to learn to learn.
     
  17. dj43

    dj43 New Member

    Aug 9, 2002
    Nor Cal

    I agree. There is a serious lack of education in most immigrants into this country. In California this is especially noticeable among Mexicans. They not only cannot speak English but they have no idea how to study, listen, take notes or any of the things that should have been taught in their schools before they came here.

    If we start by accelerating the learning of English, it will make it easier to learn other things. The problem is that for many Mexicans, and other ethnicities as well, they tend to gather in their own ethnic groups where they speak only their native language and little progress is ever made.

    Hence, the first thing to do is stress the importance of learning the language. Allowing anyone to operate under the assumption they are going to achieve any significant degree of success in any country without learning the native language of that count is to promote a big lie.
     
  18. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    ----------

    http://www.jbuff.com/c010104.htm

    And now we know why Jews never succeeded in America.

    Many immigrants speak their natives languages, but their kids learn English. You and others are confused because Hispanics continue to immigrate.
     
  19. Garcia

    Garcia Member

    Dec 14, 1999
    Castro Castro
    Missing the point.

    I am Hispanic and can admit that many of these immigrants come form poorer regions of Latin America and that can include less educated people, who are now required to learn English when they never had formal education in Spanish or the local language.

    My mother-in-law is from the Andes mountains, but all her children are from the big city on the coast. The kids have formal education, but the mom never went to school because there were no schools there, let alone running water, electricity, etc...

    In fact, she speaks Spanish with an accent because her first language is not Spanish, but a localized version of Quechua. Quechua is still spoken all over South America in some form and can vary from region to region with some slight differences. In fact, there are many other languages spoken in Latin America other than Spanish.

    Once schools were opened, girls were not considered needing of schooling. Then, the boys were needed to work on the "farm" land. Things have changed a bit, but many still live in what we would call backwards.

    Once my moms-in-law went to the capital, looking for work and not wanting to be forced into an arranged marriage, she found it tough. Sure, she needed to learn Spanish and did, but the class system pretty much denied her any upward mobility unless she went into business for herself, starting on the small scale...this is pretty much a case study in Cholo Life. ;)

    Once she was married, her husband sent her to night school. She was removed because her kids made too much noise in class. No babysitter, so she had to take the baby on her back.

    She is 65 years old now. She has lived in the USA with me for 3 years now. She has been going to ESL classes all these years. At first, she was picking up a few words here and there. Now, she can speak three languages, and finally can not only identify letters and numbers, she can read a little. Funny that people in Peru would look at her and dismiss her as some ignorant hillbilly from the mountains. I knew she was special when we would go out to a restaurant and she would enjoy looking at the menu, not being able to read, but saying the letters outloud. B - E - E - R.

    She can sign her own name now. I remember how she used to practice her signature everywhere we went. She was so cute with her notebook.

    But, if you are 18-30 years old, you come to the USA to make money. This is the age to work, not spend time in ESL classes. I can see both sides here.

    I would guess that those Jews had much more education.
     
  20. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    I'm making a different, but related point. So long as Hispanics keep moving to America, many people will equate all (or most) Hispanics with recent immigrants. Many immigrants, whether Italians or Jews or Germans, never learned English. I'm not sure you understand that. Hispanics are no different in that respect.
     
  21. Garcia

    Garcia Member

    Dec 14, 1999
    Castro Castro
    Sure, there are people in SF Chinatown today that don't really have a need or desire to learn English. My point was that some of these Latino immigrants never had much formal education in their own nation of birth.

    You decided to make it a "make or break" issue on relative success. My parents forced me to be as American as possible and even though we followed Peruvian language and culture in the home, I had to seek that part of my heritage for myself in various trips to Peru.

    I guess we need to have universal expectations of immigrants. I don't know what these may be, so maybe not needed.

    Does Univision do a dis-service to Latinos by providing the Spanish language television or is this the new changing face of our America? Many non-Latinos don't like it. I was just giving a reason as to why these folks don't learn English.
     
  22. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    I did?

    Again, I see no difference. Other immigrants read (local) foreign-language newspapers and otherwise remained immersed in their native culture.
     
  23. -cman-

    -cman- New Member

    Apr 2, 2001
    Clinton, Iowa
    100, 80, or even 50 years ago there were plenty of opportunities for functionally illiterate people. Today... not so much.

    And clearly, since the foreign-language press was so prevalent, then we are not talking about illiterates are we?

    You can't transport the examples of a obsolete cultural situation into the present and expect them to apply.
     
  24. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    The comparisons are completely valid. Immigrants often don't speak English, but their kids do. Why can't people realize the obvious? Because Hispanics continue to immigrate so there remains a large Spanish speaking population. My only point is that nobody needs to worry about Hispanics assimilating. They have, past tense.
     

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