Moreno has been having a sucky season. Etcheverry had a sucky season last year. I don't think Moreno is past his prime, but he certainly hasn't done much for us this year. If we can get the little guys early and cheap (Convey, Quaranta, Nelsen, Mapp, etc.) and have them perform as they are now, I really see no reason to move Moreno out. Seriously, with a line-up like the one against SJ, and if we can stay healthy (there's hoping) and consistent with the line-up, we are really going to be a force to be reckoned with. Even though Olsen hasn't played a lot this year, there just seems to be something different about the game when he's in there. I absolutely cannot wait until Olsen, Quaranta, and Convey are leading our attack. I think one of the greatest things that we did against SJ was we took Donovan head-on out of his game. The announcers were talking about how Donovan is now receiving the "star treatment," and as much as I like and respect Donovan (except when we play SJ), he has become a SJ brat, taking lessons from Graziani on diving and crying to the ref. He was kept relatively quiet during this game, except for his fouls, with few chances to score. We should be proud of that. (I didn't see Olsen talking to Donovan in the 92nd minute like someone said, but I'm definately going to check out the spat between the Olympic teammates.)
Sorry, Skip, but Prideaux definitely deserved a 2nd yellow. This is a no-brainer. You don't go pushing a player after the whistle has blown. MLS refs seem to live in their own fantasy world. In a World Cup match, that may have been a straight red. Donovan's yellow was deserved as well. But retaliation is not the way to go.
Moreno was probably the best striker in the league for the 1st 6 seasons. However, clearly this year he is not playing well. Maybe he should sit for the next game. On the other hand, maybe not. His replacement will surely be worse than him, and we've got, what, six games left to get into the playoffs. A win @ the MetroMutts and home against SJ and we are right back in the thick of things.
A 100% fit and on-form Olsen can't run with LD on a straight pure sprint like that. Reyes may be the only player DC has who could run with LD for thirty or forty yards (what that run sans the ball was going to turn into) and have a chance at defending him when he received the ball in space. That foul was very tactically aware, and beats the hell out of any yellow Prideaux, McKinley, et al pick up for a silly excessive-force foul at midfield.
No I disagree and quite strongly. Why? Because the intent must be seen. Prideaux was undoubtedly reacting to Donovan's foul. No question. But you must put it into the context of the game, not in some idealized game and keep the ref''s overall mission as the main reason behind any call. Look at the game. As the announcers said this game was very intense, playoff-like. Both teams were doing their utmost to win. However, as we all know, there is a fine line between that type of game and one which degenerates into a cardfest of one retaliation after another. This is not only true of MLS games but also WC games as we saw too often this June. The question then becomes, how do you stop the game from vering into such a game? This game started to get into retaliation mode I think with Olsen's yellow on Donovan. He deserved a yellow, but the San Jose team took particular offense to it judging by Eklund's deliberate yellow on Etcheverry soon after. Whereas Olsen's yellow was obviously tactical, Eklund's was not- it was purely retaliation, though in the flow of play. Obviously Eklund's foul was a step in the degeneration of the game. To me it was a clear message that San Jose was vearing away from playing to win and into reacting to United. In essence United got into the Quakes' heads. Clearly something needed to be done soon before people were gonna get outrageous and get tossed for stupid fouls. Go ahead to Donovan's yellow: another escalation away from playing the game. He knew that he was trying to provoke Prideaux into getting another yellow and to my mind this was a serious violation of the spirit of the game. Prideaux then obliged by pushing LD and then LD flopped to the ground. 95% of the time they both get yellows and Prideaux gets tossed. The Quakes, and Donovan feel revenged. United bunkers and looks to get even- not by getting a third goal but in looking to harm a Quakes player. The odds of more cards moves to something above 100% as do attempts of fouling to deliberately harm another player. Really can anyone say this is good for the game? Instead look at what happened. Only Donovan gets a card; Prideaux stays in the game. The ref in essence says, Prideaux was justified by LD's cynical ploy and I'm not gonna have the game ruined by such tactics. In essense he said that if players do what LD did then they get what they deserve. To the extent that LD was no longer playing the Beautiful Game I wholeheartedly agree because of what happened next. What happened next? Nothing. Which was the best we could hope for. How does the rest of the game go? No yellow cards issured. No cynical fouling. The game gets back on track to what it was before- one of the best MLS games this year. Sure the players were really angry with each other, but they didn't let that anger mess up the game. What more can a fan want than that? Saying Prideaux should get tossed is both obvious and mindless (and please, Mario, I'm not saying you are mindless here as I value your opinions greatly!) in that it's saying that the spirit of the game should be sacrificed for the law. This was a clear instance that if the ref did what is "supposed" to be doine, then he would have lost control of the game. Instead he did the unorthodox and saved it. I just hope that the ref for when the two teams meet again in DC in 2 weeks is as good cause there is now some bad blood between the two teams.
Ursula is absolutely, completely correct on this. Don't watch the tape (if you have one) after the the restart (when BP makes the double push). Watch before hand. LD comes in late, talking trash (very animated face right at BP) and then goes in with his cleats. You can justify giving BP a yellow. You could have easily justified giving LD a red. In truth, it should have ended up exactly the way it did: LD a yellow and BP on a short-lease (getting told from the ref "I'm tolerating no more--you're on the edge"). Other thoughts: this was not a close game. We allowed SJ to stay in the game, tie it and then press at the end b/c (a) no finishing (mainly Moreno but he had company--Convey's touch in the first half, Quintanilla) and (b) no speed in central midfield. I though Marco Etcheverry had a fine game and I like McKinley in his role but those are 2 slow guys and LD has speed and acceleration (pulling away from Convey and Olsen---who were both working more and hurt, still, they were eating his dust). Change either of those elements (ie: if McKinley suddenly gained 2 steps or we get moderately better finishing) and SJ is exposed at the back trying to get 2-3 more goals. More "other thoughts"--generally a good game plan EXCEPT for the off-the-ball stuff Hudson had people doing against LD. The BP mugging at midfield, the Olsen necktie on the breakaway, I'm sure I missed some other stuff. Unless Donovan was doing some incredible trash talking, it looked like we were intentionally trying to intimidate him off the ball. That's pretty tacky, even if you're not in the tank for Donovan. Really loved the ball movement. As for those who talked about Reyes, Convey and even Olsen not doing more down the sidelines, I have 2 thoughts for you: (1) Spartan Stadium (narrow and short) which hurts our outside game and (2) Donovan in the middle (so our faster players were always on the alert to not leave too much space in back. You could see them pull up). Now, for those who talk about "see, we really do have the talent we need" remember (a) it needs to stay healthy and we may have a bunch of players in key roles who can no longer play 2/3rds of a season (or more) and (b) you need depth. We've got Richie (and Quaranta--when healthy). Otherwise, you can't take out any of the starters on the field and argue persuasively (at least to me) that they wouldn't be missed greatly. No-way you'd seen even close to that quality of play if you'd taken out Moreno for Curtis, or Quintanilla for Lassiter, or Etcheverry for Alegria, or Olsen for Villegas, or Convey for Mapp, or any of our other defenders. If this team is going to become a force in MLS, we need core players who stay on the field and we need quality depth.
I think we basically agree, except that I am not willing to politely suggest to Jaime that he get his butt/mind into gear. DC has been pussy-footing with excuses for mor than two years, and I'm tired of it. We disagree that Jaime is responsible for the loss of six points. I'll bet you that Jaime would admit it. Clearly it is a team game and nobody knows what would have happened if history had been changed. But, his missed empty-netters of yesterday and change-up PKs, if converted, other matters staying the same, have cost us six points (vs Columbus, KC and SJ -- all draws, two at RFK). I recognize that we have few options at this stage. Hopefully, Zambrano shows well enough to put Jaime on the bench until the second half. Maybe that would sufficiently motivate him?? I am very greatful to Jaime for many fine memories, but what has he done lately? This is pro sports not the dating game . GM
Re: Ray's one sub Here's my take: Ray wanted to get Olsen game-fit, and he knew that by pushing Olsen in the game it would work. He wants Olsen hungry to keep going 90. I also think that at least half of our stoppage time "injuries" weren't real, but simply attempts to get Olsen a breather ... and it worked. Convey and Olsen are very very good players. Convey wasn't coming out while the game was in doubt. Mapp would have played earlier if Olsen couldn't have gone. Moreno was still creating dangerous chances and drawing two defenders, so with Moreno in the game it provided Eliseo a much better chance to score than had Curtis subbed in for Moreno. Also, Moreno needs to get game fit, so by the same logic as Olsen, Hudson wanted to break him in. I'm pretty confident in this because watching Chino occasionally made it seem like he had zero expectation of making it into this game. Lazo, rightfully, is in Hudson's doghouse. McKinley couldn't be subbed out. While Lazo could have handled the defensive end, he couldn't handle the offensive end, and we needed/need offense right now. Chino may have been able to do some of both, but he's as slow as McKinley and even more prone to giving up set pieces in dangerous places, plus he's not a threat in the air like McKinly and Lazo can be. -Tron
There's no question that LD was a punk on this play. He instigated the whole thing and his yellow was well deserved. He could have gotten a straight red. I would ask from Prideaux that he exercise more self control and not be lured into this trap, especially when already carrying a yellow. Remember Beckham and Simeone? Similar incident. Of course I understand your argument. And I'm glad it turned out well the rest of the game. Still, I think this type of "social engineering" is outside the scope of what referees should be asked to do. If Prideaux controls himself or embellishes the pain, LD takes a short ride to the dressing room and DCU may get the win. Instead, Prideaux has to rely on the leniency of the referee to disregard his retaliation and to save him.
Dzien dobre Ted, i bardzo mimilo. I agree with these comments. OK everyone, get off of Cweedchop already ... the guy is right. When healthy and on form Moreno is one of the best players in MLS history, and arguably the best, like it or not the guy is both a finisher and a catalyst that opposing coaches fear. Right now he's neither fit nor on form, but he's still creating chances. If you were to ask all of the coaches in MLS who they would rather have for next season from the following list, I'm willing to bet 100% would say Moreno: Dante Washington, Hristo Stoichkov, Rodrigo Faria, Mamadou Diallo, Diego Serna, Alex Pineda-Chacon, Wolde Harris, Chris Albright, McKinley Tennyson, Brian Mullan, Bobby Rhine, Chris Brown. These are all of the third or even second forwards in the league. Many think they're the first forward, but they're not. These are the people who we might be able to acquire. Otherwise, we're looking at another Dalglish situation where we get strung along, or are "lucky" to bring in a Henry Zambrano ... PUUUUUHHHHHHHLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZEEE! Moreno asleep with footballitis is better than any of these. -Tron
Jaime must be fired. Six great seasons ain't enough - it's seven or go to hell. In fact, I've seen EVERY player on this team screw up. Let's sack the whole lot! Worthless, lazy vermin. The nerve they have for not producing trophies for me every time I buy a ticket. Who do they think they are? I BOUGHT A DAMN TICKET! Perform flawlessly for ME, you selfish sloths! ME, I SAY!! DAMN IT TO HELL!! Grateful for "fine memories"? Hah! Memories mean NOTHING! I want results right NOW! You're fired! I fire everyone! Fire Rongen! And Etch! And Prethus! Fire D.C. United! If we can just start firing some folks maybe we can get somewhere. I think Ray should fire the next person to screw up. Wait - maybe we should fire Ray first. Hmm. Pardon me for interrupting -- go on with your debate...
Our opinions, Tron, are not dogma. Let's imagine we are talking around the keg. If he were a finisher, we would be tied with the mutts. I don't think anyone in the league fears Moreno or Etcheverry. There may be some respect for past accomplishments, but no fear. And I must repeat that creating chances is meaningless unless some of them are finished. Catalyst effect might be achieved better with him entering the game as a sub -- of course, that means we have to have somebody as capable to displace him off the field. That Jaime draws defenders and dishes to a team-mate is admirable, but is usually the role of a midfielder. The role of a striker is to score goals -- PERIOD. Anything else -- defense, assists, etc., is a bonus. I imagine that fans from other clubs would laugh in our faces at such an assertion that Jaime is one of MLS' best. The Press would be more circumspect, but would also, I think, strongly disagree. In fact, so would I. Just because Jaime WAS one of MLS' best does not make him so now. That would be an interesting poll. Dante for Jaime would be a good trade -- Dante finishes and plays as much if not more than Jaime, and makes probably a third of what Jaime does. Faria would be a great acquisition. He's young and can still learn things, and his salary is small relative to JM. Diallo -- I dunno, it would depend on the guy's chemistry with team-mates. I don't especially like the lone striker formation and that would appear to be Diallo's best formation. My preference would be for Jaime to recommit himself to the profession. However, he mailed-in the end of last season, he has come into camp more than once being out-of-shape, and his finishing touch is in hibernation (hopeful) or gone (skeptical). A leopard cannot change its spots, nor may an old dog be expected to learn new tricks, so I fear that his insufficient training regimen/attitude is unlikely to change in the future. Jaime in midfield at a lower salary would be great for the team approximately half the time (because he's injured the rest of the time). If we can afford it-- GREAT. But his contract should be loaded with incentives/penalties such as goals scored/ excess weight or velocity lost due to lack of fitness. Jaime needs some tough love right now, else I feel he's doomed to live in a fantasy land of living off of prior achievements. Prove me wrong, Jaime -- PLEASE! I miss the footballitis adverts! GM
Very true. I hope Hudson talked with Brandon after the game and I do worry about our next SJ game. In the back of my mind I remember the Fusion's and Hudson's breakdown vs the Quakes in last year's playoffs and I worry that the team might lose focus in two weeks in yet another game that we desperately need.
IIRC, Ray had Curtis and Mapp warming up at about '70, so he must have been considering making a change up front but decided against it based on the level of play by Jaime and Q2. Chino was definitely still on the bench at the time. I didn't notice whether Lassiter or Alavanja left the bench at all during the game. Oh, BTW, yesterday was Mike McGinty's birthday -- or so said a sign at midfield. Happy belated birthday, Mike, if you're lurking out there!
there is no way that Moreno was ever as good as Diego Serna. None. It's almost as if you guys are so biased you're ignoring facts. Diego Serna 100 career matches, 52 goals (140 points) Jaimie Moreno 134 matches, 66 goals (180) Serna technicly has a better strike rate, but when you factor in all the terrible midfields that Serna had pre 2001, you'll see it's obvious. If Serna had Etch in his prime, then you'd see that Serna would have a billion goals. And you guys should know better since Serna torched you guys last year.
Serna was rolling on the ground far too often to have time to be better than Moreno. Once he's standing he's pretty decent though. Too bad Miami didn't give a fork about soccer. Where does he play now?
Completely disagree. A fully fit Olsen stays with LD no problem. It was still a bad foul that he shouldn't have had to make because he shouldn't have been in there.
Regardless of whether he should have been in there or not, he was. The question then becomes "Was it a wise play to make or not?" Should Olsen have grabbed Donovan and held on for dear life? Damn straight!!!
[QUOTE If anybody is ready to ship Moreno out you're dillusional. I saw Jaime hustle his ass off but could not finish. Do you really think he won't put those away in the future. Or would you prefer to line up against him? [/B][/QUOTE] Like Abdul Conteh has, or Roy Lassiter? I think the best thing I've heard said about Jaime is from a british man that was sitting next to us last home game. "Jaime has nothing left to do here" Meaning, that he has won 3 MLS championships for us. He has been on top and has nothing else to accomplish in MLS. He's done all he can do in this forum. His ambition is fading. "It's better to burn out than it is to rust"- Neil Young
I like that. Happy Birthday McGinty! Donovan was trying to draw the second yellow on Prideaux ... and that kind of savvy is just the type of thing he needs to develop for the USMNT, but I'm glad the ref realized this. There was zero chance that the ref would red card Donovan in San Jose on national TV with his "Make a Wish" thing for a foul like that. Zero. A 100% fit and in shape Olsen cannot keep up with Donovan in a straight foot race. Few people realize just how fast Donovan really is. But, while Donovan is dribbling and if Olsen can get a shoulder into him, I think Olsen could hang close enough to defend him for about 30 yards. I wasn't saying that Moreno's production this season merited his salary ... quite to the contrary. My point was that looking forward I think every coach would realize that Moreno has a LOT left in the tank, and that if he can get back fit and in form, he'll once again be as good a striker as there is in MLS. His attitude is light years better than Serna or Diallo, and he's no cancer to the team. He's less of a risk than either as well. Dante Washington simply doesn't command a double team ... ever. Without a superior striker next to him, he doesn't score very many. Moreno created chances despite the extra attention, and I have complete faith that his finishing will return, probably this season, but I'm very very confident that it will be present next season. There is light at the end of the tunnel. Olsen's return, Etch's rejuvenation and Hudson's kick-azz defense helps the players realize that. This offseason will be much more focused than last season's unsettled offseason. As a result, we should be a title contender next season if we add some depth and another top notch striker. With our "you suck" allocation, several top draft picks and Mike Ammann's salary slot, we should be able to do all of that. -Tron
Just as an FYI re: Moreno and United 2002: With Moreno as Starter: 4W 4L 4T With Moreno as Sub: 1W 0L 0T Without Moreno in Line-up: 1W 7L 1T Obviously his impact isn't like Michael Jordan's, BUT, with him we are a solid .500 team (which in our division gets you 2nd place berth in the playoffs). Without him in the game we are beyond pathetic 1-7-1. The win with him as a sub was an overtime victory where he was inserted into the line-up for overtime, I think we all remember that one.
Serna has 0.52 gpg while Moreno has 0.49. Not really statistically significant when you factor that Moreno played 2 more seasons. Both have suffered severe injuries. Etch is not the player he once was, and last year he was horrible, and not too great in 2000 either, so I'm not sure I buy your argument. Anyway, what has happened to Serna? He scored 1 goal in 8 games with the MetroMutts, and he's scored 1 goal in 5 games. That's 2 goals in 13 games, or 0.15 gpg. I guess the strength of Twellman combined with N.E.'s dismal defense have spelled the demise of Chacon and Serna. Still, despite less playing time, I would have expected more from Serna. Has he been injured? Bottom line is that Serna is a damn good player and has the statistics to back it up. Same for Moreno. Who is better? I still say Moreno. United have 3 championships and he's been a big part of that. Moreno's speed and dribbling ability are par none. His finishing is not what it once was, but I expect him to rebound.