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Discussion in 'USA Men' started by AutoPenalti, Dec 2, 2018.
Why not phase in the tactics slowly, rather than implementing it whole hog?
Nations league is gonna be fun against the Canadians
Just the tip... talk about the old college try there
At least we know they will be polite when they beat us.
JK's teams never looked this bad.
And when we lost, we didn't blame it on the pool. We just got man-handled by Mexico 3-0. and the response from some 3G defenders is to blame it on our pool. Where was that when we lost to Columbia or Argentina in the Copa America Centenario? Oh, that's right, it wasn't there.
Let me put it another way. We were right in the middle of our talent trough leading up to Cuova, and we still felt like the pool was good enough to compete with Mexico, hence the frustration with JK doing so much tinkering, and the frustration with Arena relying so much on his oldest veterans.
Now that we've got all this young talent, they're suddenly not good enough?
Bruce Murray weighs in...
Why wouldn't everyone press us until we prove we can handle it?
Cause most teams in the CONCACAF suck at pressing and play with 10 men in the box.
We were already capable of building up against a defense who wasn't putting much pressure on, so what is gained by this exercise/adjustment in style?
This issue before was breaking them down in the final third. So does playing possession all the time help with that? And how do you develop players period playing w/ 20-somethings in short camps? It seems a fool's errand.
What does your post have to do with my post?
I am lost.
That's revisionist history. Getting out-shot 21:6 by Haiti and 25:5 by Panama at home isn't looking this bad? And that was in official a-team comp, not a friendly. There were some famous performances in friendlies, but also infamous ones, like that soul-crusher against Brasil where they toyed w/ us.
Who is we, as far as blaming it on the pool? I heard a large segment of fans doing that when it came to defending Klinsmann. FTR, I wasn't one of them at that point, nor am I now when it comes to providing Gregg protection. They both suck and are product of a dysfunctional fed.
We are at a similar spot talent-wise now. The problem then was the core was too old and now it's too young. And as far as building up good depth, in fairness Gregg hasn't had the ability to do that because of the failings of his predecessors like Klinsmann. But there was and is still enough quality + depth surrounding to be respectable against the top 15 best and beat just about all the rest.
You seemed to be providing a defense for the tactic, and my point was nothing is gained if the teams you were already building up effectively against you still are, but not the ones you weren't. Against them, i.e.: Mexico and Costa Rica; all you do is lose the ball in your own third giving up chances while gaining less of your own.
You misinterpreted my post.
There was a question and I answered it.
I am not defending anything.
Ah, I see. I have that guy on ignore. I thought you were responding to Bruce Murray's quote/"nobody"'s post by commenting underneath it.
Building out of the back is not a strategy. It is not a game plan. It is one way to start your possession. BOTB was not the problem Friday. The problem was that Mexico knew we wanted to do it, over committed to stop it, and we refused to implement the obvious tactical solution. Possibly because GB told the team not to.
No actual game would be played like that. With one team sending 6-8 guys forward to press and the other only trying to pass line by line. It was bizarre. My biggest problem with it, besides they charged me to watch it, is I don't see how you teach anything in that situation. We learned we can't pass through a quality team when they overload us in our own defensive third. Ok. So what?
In any competitive game, we will not be 6 v 7 in the buildup. Because even if we were to have the same artificial constraint put on our players by our coach, the other team would never really be sure and would never over commit that much.
It was a doomed and futile exercise. Probably the last intense friendly before WCQ and it was just wasted for no reason. What was the point? And the players have to be embarrassed with everyone talking about how they suck. The players have to know they purposefully were made to look stupid. Is this how you win the locker room as a coach?
And how does that game get any fan support back. This team is at a new low, which is hard to believe after Couva. And not because they are poor players, but because the coach purposefully set them up to fail and did nothing as they failed. And then the coach said he was pleased they failed.
JK's teams did look this bad sometimes. But as I've noted already, there are key similarities between Berhalter and JK. They both tried to play the genius (in different ways) and ended up outsmarting themselves and making the team look disjointed and confused, as if the players had just met each other for the first time five minutes before kickoff.
And both coaches' defenders blamed the player pool. It's not the pool. We're not only looking this bad against Mexico, we're looking this bad against Haiti and Curacao.
Can't Egg get Sarachan as his #2?
Well, there are a small percentage who do play like that, such as Man City.
However, it's foolhardy for the U.S. to try and be one. City can pick their own players and have the resources to assemble an xi with almost exclusively top couple hundred players in the world. The U.S. have 1 or 2 when everybody is available, and neither is suited to play the style. Also it requires a unique keeper w/ who can evade pressure and pick out passes at short and mid-range. Don't have that guy.
I agree w/ the general sentiment it's a false dichotomy. Take what the opponent is giving you. Why try to pass thru a high, organized press off a dead ball especially? If you play the ball longer off the free kick, and occasionally when the team has effectively closed you down in the run of play, try to win the aerial/loose ball, press, if you don't get there defend, then go, circle it back if nothing is there. Then when you try to build up from there the press is further back and disorganized. Much harder to force turnovers and when they happen you aren't punished nearly as badly.
Why can't we also high press at times so the possession is higher and the defense has less time to react? You know who wasn't above that? Mexico, to generate this dissatisfaction from us right now. Also hasn't been too good for Colombia, Chile, and Costa Rica. That's how the U.S. dominated Mexico the last couple u-20 cycles.
I do think there will be more games for useful experiments before the hex, i.e.: tomorrow and a home/home with Canada in a competitive tourney. But Friday's experiment was a useless one and wasted opportunity. You only get so many.
Why is no one on this site or in the media addressing the fact that Everyone on the pitch played his positions (at some point) Except the kid who has never played with the team: Dest.
he was placed at LB even thought that is not the position he played in the UCL qualified recently.
Why did he start at a position he doesn't play? Why was he brought in at this young age and placed here? Cannon looked great...good for him! why didn't Dest get that opportunity in his first start to play his actual position?
It is incredible to me that no one mentions this. He is 18 and asked to switch positions. It is unreal that his coach would do this to him. It is unreal that anyone has anything negative to say about him.
It's a non-issue. That is also the position he started out at for Ajax's 1st team before transferring over to the right when needed. And he looked plenty capable there.
For the national team Cannon, Yedlin, and Lima were already established at right back. Cannon and Lima were available. One played at right back. That opened up a spot for Dest at LB, a long-term need spot for the team. And he played over Lima, which should be considered a vote of confidence.
The U.S. has treated Dest more than fairly in the last year. He started even thru a couple poor performances to begin the u-20 WC, got promoted after he established himself a little w/ Ajax's first team, and played at appropriate positions.
His struggles were more likely due to the nerves of a debut, having to defend deeper than he has for Ajax so far where he's mostly been asked to recover, and the team breakdowns. When the machine breaks down, we break down.
No you didn't.
I can't speak for others, but I will for myself. I know that people are probably sick of me saying this, but long before we hired anyone to replace Arena I said that IF we were going to hire an American coach, we had to go for Jesse Marsch. And I made my position on why I believed that very clear.
I didn't know exactly what system Gregg would implement but I certainly knew that he was a guy who was going to try to play the ball around the field. We had all seen his team. Marsch, we knew, was going to press a bit and cause havoc. We had all seen HIS team. And simply noting that the US had virtually no prime aged talent to go with and the older guard had just failed to qualify for the 2018 World Cup, it was quite apparent that we were going to be forced to move forward with a bunch of young and inexperienced players.
That said, those young and inexperienced players were going to have a much more difficult time playing any type of a Gregg style than they would have had learning a simpler style that made use of their youthful legs and energy to put teams under pressure. Players need some seasoning to play GGG's style. It was clear from the onset that for THIS cycle, with all the young players, Marsch was the better choice and then the options for the next cycle could be more expansive. Hell, England got to the semis of the last World Cup by taking a bunch of young guys and running a lot.
I say all of that to say this - I don't believe that friendly result matter all that much. But losing the same way in friendlies again and again doesn't fill me with confidence either. We have now gotten pasted in our last 3 friendlies, getting outscored 7-0. We spent all game trying to pass around Jamaica in a friendly (which I attended) and failed miserably. Then got passed around like a joint by Venezuela while trying to play the same way. Then Mexico … ugh, what a game. This team is not suited to play the way Gregg desires. It should be obvious now. Hell, it was obvious to me 23 months ago when we began looking for a new manager. His fetish with playing out of the back is a symptom of his larger illness.
A non-issue? Then why did cannon not start on the left. In literally his first match against our fiercest opponent they slotted him left. He is a UCL caliber RB. Cannon is not.
He hasn't played in the UCL group stage yet, which is a different animal. APOEL's Transfermarkt value is equivalent to near the bottom of MLS'. PAOK's is a little above Atlanta's. He had 1 start and 1 sub appearance against them. It's a small sample. Dest has shown promise, but he's not established as a UCL caliber RB yet.
And we don't have a great gauge about Cannon's peak or even current club level. He started out in the US because he grew up in the US. Dest started out in the Netherlands because he grew up in the Netherlands. Good chance Cannon makes a move to a top 4 league in the WTW on the strength of his national team performances.
National team performances are naturally the #1 criteria for national team role. Dest may surpass Cannon, but he has to earn his stripes. Club performances often don't translate anywhere near 1:1.
Then getting the best xi on the field in roles sufficiently suited to them is another consideration. Again, that's where he played for Ajax's first team thru the Super Cup, and I'm sure he'll play again if Tagliafico isn't available for a few games. For some reason it's fine for Ajax but not for the US to integrate and utilize him in a similar way, at the detriment of their success. That team is worse if Cannon isn't on the field and it's Lovitz/Ream (who you hate iirc) at lb, and Cannon hasn't started a game for FCD at LB AFAIK (just switched over to cover during a game).
Yes, I did.