PBP: O39: D1.England - Cameroon.E3

Discussion in 'Women's World Cup' started by Gilmoy, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. Plxix

    Plxix BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Mar 13, 2006
    Back to soccer: I think England will win 3rd place again this year.
     
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  2. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Member

    Jul 18, 2011
    Club:
    Real Madrid


    That's why I like Toni so much.
     
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  3. MiLLeNNiuM

    MiLLeNNiuM Member+

    Aug 28, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Who's been coaching you on your recent posts, Hope Solo?
    Lots of references to the word "coward." :eek::D:ROFLMAO:
     
  4. MiLLeNNiuM

    MiLLeNNiuM Member+

    Aug 28, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm curious, could they be the cause of this embarrasment?
     
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  5. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    May 4, 2002
    It's my word of the month.

    You will note that the vast majority of those references, if not all of them, I used the word "coward" in reference to referees. I think that the making of cowards must be part of FIFA's referee training. They are so afraid that a call will influence a match that they do not make calls and that influences the game even more. The elbow, that did not receive the correct red card, in the first three minutes of this match is just the latest example of that bias.
     
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  6. Romario'sgurl

    Romario'sgurl Member+

    Wakanda FC
    Aug 26, 2000
    Wakanda
    Club:
    FC Ingolstadt 04
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
     
  7. MiLLeNNiuM

    MiLLeNNiuM Member+

    Aug 28, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #257 MiLLeNNiuM, Jun 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
    I had these exact thoughts and was questioning the motives of the players' actions as I watched this match.

    I think the Cameroon players (and other poorly funded teams) who aren't properly supported by their federations causes pent up emotions to get expressed through frustration during matches.

    Having said that, the worst part was near the end when #7 of Cameroon was screaming at the ref and the England girls. She looked totally out of control at that point.

    I think the England girls did a nice job of staying mostly calm and professional. Hopefully, they will all be available to play in their next match.
     
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  8. MiLLeNNiuM

    MiLLeNNiuM Member+

    Aug 28, 2016
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed. That's who I picked for 3rd place in the predictor thread.
     
  9. kennytt

    kennytt Member+

    LA teams, OC SC
    May 26, 2001
    Santa Ana, OC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Chile or Argentina should make a good replacement
     
  10. Unimane

    Unimane Member+

    Jul 28, 2009
    Nashville
    Club:
    Borussia Dortmund
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The "Oh yeah, what about you (him/her)?!" defense isn't something I accept from my seven year old (And I'm referring to the tweet here, not you). In fact, the use of whataboutism is my least favorite response for anything. Either they should have comported themselves better or were well within their rights to react as they did. I thought they could have been better. Nearly all of them are professionals, not high school kids, and know how to behave in those situations.

    But, each situation is, largely, its own and should be judged accordingly. I was, personally critical, for whatever a post on an internet board is worth, of the US in their behavior during the Thailand game and now I think Cameroon players deserve the same type of criticism.
     
  11. shlj

    shlj Member+

    Apr 16, 2007
    London
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    The post game interview from one of the Cameroon player clearly explain what happened in their head. Now they did deserve two red cards so their complaint are ... but it goes:

    indirect free kick that leads to goal given when it was not a back-pass #1 debatable
    offside on the second goal #2 they don't know the rule obviously
    then their goal given offside #3

    they had the feeling ( wrong obviously) that the referee gave the game to England, hence racism accusation etc...
     
  12. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    This was one of the first 'ladies' football matches I have ever seen and I am sorry the Cameroons were a DISGRACE, being English I have seen the English national team suffer from REAL injustices, Maradona punching the ball into the net? (fact), Lampards goal not given despite being 3 feet behind the line (fact), Campbell goal ruled out for no reason (very strong argument), I don't remember the English team refusing to play on, I don't remember them trying to 'break legs' afterwards because they felt aggrieved! Lets get one thing straight here from the off - the VAR decisions were the CORRECT decisions (apart from a penalty not given - to the English! and two sending offs (elbow and potential leg breaking foul) which so obviously should have occurred!). Now there is NOTHING wrong with Nevilles comments WHY should he have to be careful with what he said just because Cameroon is an African nation!!! Now THAT is racism! His comments HIT THE NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEAD.
     
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  13. pierre bezukhov

    AC Milan
    Japan
    Mar 7, 2018
    Japan
    I do not believe anyone is absolving Cameroon for their behaviour; it was terrible. But I can kind of understand where their frustration came from, but they have to do better.

    Phill Neville can also criticise the Cameroon women for their behaviour, fair enough, but it is a little bit like the pot calling the kettle black. Because he played for a team team that behaved just as bad or even worse than Cameroon did.

    I guess what I am saying now is that it suits his narrative now to criticise whereas when he was playing it was just part of the game.
     
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  14. blissett

    blissett Member+

    Aug 20, 2011
    Italy
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    I feel like an answer from me is due, because I was one of those who talked about "victimism", but I don't like the label of "whitesplaining" that's applied indifferently to the whole thread (thus, I feel, to me also).

    First point is: if i can understand where Cameroonian players' behaviour comes from, this doesn't mean that I can excuse it or justify it. They were unexcusable, and, mind, I put a lot of the blame on their coach for the narrative he seems to have forged for them since the beginning, but this is the maximum stage of women's football, and players are supposed to behave as professionals (even in the chance, alas not so unlikely, that some of them actually aren't and/or aren't treated as such by their team or by their federation).

    Second point: it's very difficult to deny (and doing it, in my humble opinion, would denote quite a lote of bias) that, from a technical point of view, most of the decisions that were made by the refereeing staff were correct (or at least they were if we refer to the standards that were applied to these first two weeks of the WWC: and I guess it's a duty of everyone involved in this WWC, referees, players, coaches, announcers and journalists, to get informed about how these standard were set in these first days of the competition). Just apply the laws of the games combined with the technical instruments that VAR makes available and you get these decisions: actually, any other decision would have been very questionable. Are you really telling me that Ejangue could have got away with that move not being called a back-pass? We wouldn't even be here debating, if it wasn't for all of the other questions that were raised around this match, and as ready as I can be to be proved wrong, I don't think that any honest viewer could think otherwise: or, please, explain to me in which circumstances, if any, a referee should be allowed to whistle this infraction.
    If anything, some calls were against England. Once again: Leuko's elbow in the first minutes looks like the textbook definition of "intentional". We have seen a lot of elbowing, in the past, where the players involved were jumping or anyway making uncontrolled movements with the torso, and those looked indeed quite unsatisfying at times: it was only the particular enforcement about this infraction making them legit; here, instead, we had two players running side by side and you can see one of them lifting her elbow up and projecting it backwards to hit the face of the opponent. Is there any racism in pointing this out?

    Third and final point: probably I wasn't enough clear, and I apoligize if it came across in a wrong way, but my notion of "victimism" wasn't addressed to the players; it was specifically addressed to some posters here on this thread. I said that I understand, although I don't condone it, the fact that Cameroonian players's minds weren't clear and that somehow they actually felt like something unfair had been done to them. What I don't condone is the fact that people watching the game from home, comfortably sitting on their armchair, and seeing all the "questionable" (!) events with all of the instruments available to a viewer and without the emotional burden of actually being out there on the pitch, can start objecting even to crystal-clear decisions, with an obvious and "on principle" bias. My "victimism" comment was addressed to those people, and I don't feel like I was "whitesplaining" everything: apart from the fact that I don't even want or need to know if those who write on these boards are African, American, European or anything else, and I don't think it would have any relevance in the discussion, I think my comment, even when I was calling "victimism", was based on facts, and not on "unconscious biases" or "systemic racism". These things of course exist, and it's very possible that it happens to me to be affected by them, but I don't feel like I went over the line or like I was unrespectful to anyone: I just quite vehemently expressed my point of view and, if people don't agree with me, I would like them to discuss my points, instead of generically accusing me of "whitesplaining".
     
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  15. marco gabbiadini

    Sunderland
    England
    Jul 7, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I'm not a fan of Phil Neville. He was part of a team that was the bane of my childhood. I hated that team with a passion. However, Phil Neville was never a main source of their poor behaviour. It almost always came from Roy Keane or Eric Cantona. Phil Neville was the Scrappy Doo of the team - the yappy younger brother who felt much more of a bit part player.

    He is entitled to have an opinion on a team that could have put his captain and best player out of the next match with an incredibly nasty tackle that only happened because Cameroon had lost their heads. Just as the manager of Crystal Palace had an opinion when Cantona attacked that fan, or the Manchester City manager had an opinion when Keane purposefully took out Alf-Inge Haland. It's ridiculous to suggest that he can't talk about bad behaviour because Roy Keane was a thug.

    That said, I'd much rather he smiled, talked about how good his players were and looked forward to the next match. The Cameroon tactic was clearly to try and rattle the England side with fouls (I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt with the spitting incident and assuming it was accidental) - this is something that happens regularly in English cup matches when a lower league side plays a premier league team. He should be able to keep his cool and take this sort of stuff in his stride.
     
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  16. BarryfromEastenders

    Staff Member

    Jul 6, 2008
     
  17. marco gabbiadini

    Sunderland
    England
    Jul 7, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    This is getting a bit silly now. They used the pretty common tactic of roughing up a more skilful opponent and lost their heads when it went wrong. It's hardly the end of the world.

    And I don't think it reflects badly on Africa as a whole. It reflects badly on the Cameroon team during that match, and that's about it.

    I hadn't heard of Isha Johansen till now. Apparently she owns a football team in Sierra Leone called F.C. Johansen. Imaginative name.
     
  18. pierre bezukhov

    AC Milan
    Japan
    Mar 7, 2018
    Japan
    Well that is part of it, but all the times United players would surround the referee, intimidate and threaten them; he was very much a part of that.

    I am not saying he can't comment on it, but I am going to take whatever he says with a grain of salt. He should have focused more on his players and how they played. But I think the way Cameroon played has kept people from scrutinising England, because once again they did not look that good.

    I also think that some of the quotes were taken right after the game when he was still very excited, so we should cut him some slack. The immediate post match interview is not a good idea in my opinion, though it does get a bit more of a raw response
     
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  19. marco gabbiadini

    Sunderland
    England
    Jul 7, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Yeah, fair enough.

    It was a pretty common tactic of Alex Ferguson that when his side played poorly, he would ,take a post-match attack some aspect of the opposition, to take the heat off.

    I think that we should take anything any manager says with a pinch of salt, since they always have the background motivation of winning matches. While to me at the time it looked like Neville was genuinely rattled by Cameroon's approach, maybe he was pulling a Ferguson and trying to deflect attention away from certain aspects of England's defensive display.
     
  20. KimLittle#Magic

    Arsenal
    England
    Jun 16, 2019
    I can honestly never remember Cantona vividly arguing with a referee - getting sent off sure.
     
  21. fire123

    fire123 Member

    Jul 31, 2009
    You must not have read the posts that I was replying to.
    Those posts suggested to throw out several players (not just a player) and coach including throwing out the 1st player who threw the elbow at about the 4 min mark. I guess that means taking control early like you want?

    "Taking control of the game" are just some nice words people throw out, not that easy to accomplish when the players and coaches do not fear of the consequences.

    I think , with 99% certainty, once you do that, that game has to be terminated. There is no way those Cameroon players will continue to play the game. Even with minimum punishments the ref actually handed out, they were already defying and thought about not playing.
    It's the real world. You deal with it with the tools you have without blowing up the whole place.
     
  22. marco gabbiadini

    Sunderland
    England
    Jul 7, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    England

    How about this -


    He throws and hits the referee with the ball, and then kicks at him when it rebounds back. It's not verbal, but it's a lack of respect for the official that is pretty eye opening.
     
  23. KimLittle#Magic

    Arsenal
    England
    Jun 16, 2019
    That wasn't for United though
     
  24. blissett

    blissett Member+

    Aug 20, 2011
    Italy
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    I've read all of the thread. Actually I think that the notion that the ref would have ended having to send off almost the whole team didn't originally come from the other poster (I guess it was @Kakeru, if I remember well), but was introduced when you insisted on the notion that one or two RCs wouldn't have been enough.

    I am sorry but there is a gradation between "blowing up the whole place" and a free-for-all where everything is allowed. The referee didn't even try to find the sweet spot in-between, she just plainly surrendered. You say that one or two RCs would have implied leading in the end to terminating the game, but I don't buy that: I am not saying that there wouldn't have been reactions from Cameroon's players, but nothing worse that what we've seen, actually.

    If the RCs had been legit (and at least a pair of the infractions we've seen on the pitch were well-deserving the red), what we'd probably have to live with would have been a match with 9 players vs 11. It happened in the past, although not frequently, it wouldn't have been the end of the world. And had the Cameroonian players decided to leave the pitch, we wouldn't have got a much worse situation than what we have in our hand anyway. Do you think that the game as we've seen it has given a much more positive image of women's football than a suspended match would have given?
     

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