Not a true Christian: Debate Christianity and Religion's role in Politics

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Deadtigers, Sep 6, 2023.

  1. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, he didn’t go to school there. I know that Butker is extremely Trad Cath, as in he goes to a church with the Latin Mass. Do Benedictines still use that?

    The school is in Kansas, and he plays for Kansas City, so in that sense he’s a local guy who is famous and Catholic.
     
    Deadtigers repped this.
  2. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    No.
     
  3. Kazuma

    Kazuma Member+

    Chelsea
    Jul 30, 2007
    Detroit
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    As someone who was raised Catholic, don't mess with nuns. Seriously.
     
    roby, raza_rebel and Pønch repped this.
  4. The Devil's Architect

    Feb 10, 2000
    The American Steppe
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You have two choices for being a Christian in Politics:

    Option A: James Earl (Jimmy) Carter, Jr.

    Option B: The modern GOP as eptomized by:
    Donald Trump & Family
    Ted Cruz / Marco Rubio / Rick Scott
    Marjorie Taylor Green / Laurne Boebert
    Any # of the clowns wearing AR-15 pins
    Ron DeSantis / Kevin Stitt / Kay Ivey / Tate Reaves
    Filter that down to your locals & the Moms for Liberty​
     
    roby, fatbastard and Chicago76 repped this.
  5. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
  6. Kazuma

    Kazuma Member+

    Chelsea
    Jul 30, 2007
    Detroit
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Latin Mass hasn't been a thing in my lifetime.

    The funny thing about the TradCath movement Dave mentions is my great-grandmother, who was a proud Catholic would've thought them weirdos. Same with the rest of my family. If anything, most Catholics are either Biden or are Catholics like the Sopranos; cultural and only go to mass for certain occasions.
     
    Deadtigers repped this.
  7. Chicago76

    Chicago76 Member+

    Jun 9, 2002
    it’s an interesting comparison actually. Trying to sum it up as succinctly as possible and sticking only to the modern day boundaries of India: 95% of the population speaks one of 14 languages as native speaker. They have 14 different scripts. These languages belong to one of two families and there is less similarity between the two families than the northern family has with Icelandic. Very little mutual intelligibility, although Urdu and Hindi are kinda like Moldovan vs Romanian or Croatian vs Serbian. Different alphabets but almost perfectly mutually intelligible. 1 Abrahamic religion and 4 Eastern religions. The biggest one has no hierarchical leadership stricture of any kind. With the exception of some of the northeast, everyone is a mixture of three different genetic sources (Persian, Indus area and indigenous Dravidian).

    There is a ridiculous degree of diversity in Hinduism. Shit time if gods who are really just aspects of the same god and it has no truly authoritative text.

    Caste is the system that organically grew to create cohesion. 3,000 or so “clans” that promoted labor supply/labor division and basically reduced transaction costs via risk mitigation in trade. Like crime families. Your patents, aunts, uncles and grandparents keep you in line to ensure business dealings and reputation within the caste. And if you screw over another caste, it will be dealt with swiftly to remedy the situation by either your family (hopefully) or the caste. Excommunication, financial compensation, “disappearing”, etc. it was a way to make order out of something that makes the Balkans seem simple.

    And while Muslims elsewhere don’t have caste, in India they did/informally still do. There isn’t a cohesive sense of Hindu theology or Hindu values. Which is why Modi has opposition in three very different parts of the country. It is also why he panders to groups like the Bohras (very wealthy Muslim sect). overarching traditional values (reputation and others opinion of you, your family and your caste) is the traditional force that transcends religion. And that might be because Hinduism is so decentralized and fragmented or maybe Hinduism never became more centralized because of caste and the ethnic/cultural heterogeneity.

    And that really is as succinctly as I can put it.
     
  8. Chicago76

    Chicago76 Member+

    Jun 9, 2002
    [​IMG] This chart seems relevant to the discussion in the last couple pages.
     
    luftmensch, superdave and Auriaprottu repped this.
  9. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Patronizing much? I don't mean you- just the map's stated measurements. "Survival v. Self-Expression Values"? "Muslim countries in italics"? Kinda judgy-wudgy.... Is there a description of how they arrived at these kinda blatantly Westcentric descriptions?
     
  10. Sounders78

    Sounders78 Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Olympia
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    France

    Ireland isn't on the map for some reason, while Northern Ireland is separate from "Britain".
     
    Deadtigers and Auriaprottu repped this.
  11. song219

    song219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 5, 2004
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Vanuatu
    That whole thing is a mess. Anyone can post a chart. I'm going to assume they are illegitimate and not waste my time looking up who put that chart together.
     
    Deadtigers repped this.
  12. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There’s a link in the image
     
  13. Chicago76

    Chicago76 Member+

    Jun 9, 2002
    It was developed two academics associated with a highly regarded consortium of political scientists. The primary criticism is the presentation and labeling of their work, which can suggest a Western bias. I prefer to think of the axes less as value judgements but rather as differences.

    In terms of what goes into the analysis, most academic theories of cultural difference have identified the same 5-7 qualitative factors. Things like power differences, indulgence, individualism vs collectivism, etc. Political science scores qualitative factors for data analysis. It’s what social scientists often do. This is no different. They’ve used principal components analysis to reduce those to two essentially hybrid variable axes. They’ve done wave after wave of global surveys, they publish the data and they make it downloadable in a variety of statistical package and spreadsheet formats so that others can poke holes, duplicate, scrutinize, critique. In other words, this is about clinical as one can get. You can’t perfectly reduce entire countries containing millions of people each into two variables, but in their estimation, these two PCA derived axes capture about 70% of it.

    WVS is a global comsortium of political scientists. They designs differentiated surveys across 100+ counties, and receive 400k responses covering over a few hundred variables and their data has been the source of 30,000 academic publications.

    https://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/WVSContents.jsp



    Inglehart was a UMich political scientist. I wouldn’t call him just anybody.

    https://isr.umich.edu/news-events/n...ld-values-survey-ronald-inglehart-dies-at-86/

    If people don’t like it, that’s fine. But it’s probably as vetted, reviewed and studiously developed as anything posted here.


    Culture is informed by economics, religion, adjacency and relations to other cultures, globalization, etc. it makes sense that if one were to plot these things, it would be somewhat apparent.
     
    Mike03, soccernutter, luftmensch and 2 others repped this.
  14. Chicago76

    Chicago76 Member+

    Jun 9, 2002
    Yeah. Just posted some info. I mean it’s actually pretty accepted and reviewed stuff. It’s a more academic and robust version of Hodstede.
     
    Deadtigers repped this.
  15. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That’s the spirit!
     
  16. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Thanks for the addition
     
  17. song219

    song219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 5, 2004
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Vanuatu
    Life is too short. I do thank Chicago76 for digging so I don't have to.
     
    Dr. Wankler, Auriaprottu and Sounders78 repped this.
  18. rslfanboy

    rslfanboy Member+

    Jul 24, 2007
    Section 26
    TBF, he probably should have started with the digging, but this is BS, and I appreciate the effort required to drag the conversation out.
     
    MattR and Deadtigers repped this.
  19. cliche_guevara

    Jun 1, 2004
    San Francisco, CA
    And there are specific places in Germany that would - full of vitriol - not consider themselves part of Protestant Europe.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. chaski

    chaski Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 20, 2000
    redacted
    Club:
    Lisburn Distillery FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Turks and Caicos Islands
    Northern Ireland is part of the U.K. but it is not part of Great Britain.:geek:
     
  21. Sounders78

    Sounders78 Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Olympia
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    France

    Yeah, I get that, but it still doesn't explain why Ireland (the Republic) was left out. And if Northern Ireland is split from "Britain", which is not a country but a region in France (you'll note they didn't call it "Great Britain", which is an island, but just "Britain", which is the anglicized form of Brittany), then why not split out England, Scotland and Wales as well? After all, it's the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland!
     
    Auriaprottu repped this.
  22. chaski

    chaski Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 20, 2000
    redacted
    Club:
    Lisburn Distillery FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Turks and Caicos Islands
    The map that Chicago76 posted says “Great Britain”.
    Maybe the mapmakers couldn’t decide whether to put Ireland in English-Speaking or Catholic Europe, so they just left it out.;)
     
    rslfanboy, Chicago76, superdave and 2 others repped this.
  23. Chicago76

    Chicago76 Member+

    Jun 9, 2002
    there’s a Great above the Britain there mate. As for why NI and no I…it’s safe to say funding. Certain countries are members of a European affiliate of this organization and they’re all in. Ireland isn’t one of them. U Southampton sponsors UK of GB and NI and I imagine they saw a statistical difference between NI and other UK respondents and funded NI specifically. Some at-large funding goes into this but Ireland is probably well down the priority list there. N Macedonia and Latvia are the two Euros that appear to have been picked up by at large funding, and both are probably much more interesting and useful to study longitudinally given their economic transitions and newish political status.

    there is a very long list of countries outside of Europe that don’t get direct funding that are far better research subjects as well.
     
    Sounders78 repped this.
  24. Kazuma

    Kazuma Member+

    Chelsea
    Jul 30, 2007
    Detroit
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Tweet apologies but it is funny as a lapsed Catholic to see the converts lose it when Pope Francis says something they disagree with. Even better is that Catholics were heavily involved with the New Deal and Dems for ages. And I know from experience my grandmother, who was devout would find the converts weird.

    One particular convert I always found amusing was Liz Bruenig. For a variety of reasons.

     
  25. MattR

    MattR Member+

    Jun 14, 2003
    Reston
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's called Roman Catholic for a reason.

    And I loved 7am Latin mass. 45 minutes tops and no singing.
     
    Deadtigers repped this.

Share This Page