No thread for Arafat?

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by VFish, Oct 27, 2004.

  1. VFish

    VFish Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Odd, I figured this crowd would be expressing a little more concern for a Nobel prize winner. Go figure?
     
  2. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    Just went to fark.com to see what you were talking about, and there it was:

    Ambulance arrives outside Arafat's Ramallah compound. Three Jordanian doctors, four Egyptian lawyers, eight anti-tank rockets, and a dozen midget clowns spill out

    Legitimate news services are so August 2004.
     
  3. Dr Jay

    Dr Jay BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 7, 1999
    Newton, MA USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    The sooner he boxes the better for everyone.

    When Arafat is out of the equation, we'll be closer to a solution.
     
  4. VFish

    VFish Member+

    Jan 7, 2001
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    :D
     
  5. Kappa18

    Kappa18 New Member

    Aug 9, 2002
    Toronto, Canada
    Club:
    Beitar Jerusalem FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Israel
    I hope the man suffers :mad: Afterall he's got israel threw! If he wasn't a stronghold in the PA police/heirachy system, than there would be a better chance to have peace. Unforunately, having him, his kuffiya and his nationalistic attitude block any chance for real reforms and an everlasting peace......


    Less Arafat and more democracy :D
     
  6. sch2383

    sch2383 New Member

    Feb 14, 2003
    Northern Virginia
    Having Arafat out of the equation would only help the process, but if Sharon needs to leave as well.
     
  7. 352klr

    352klr Member

    Jan 29, 2001
    The Burgh of Edin
    It may help. But then again you have Hamas completely filling the void left behind.

    As for Sharon, the coverstory of this week's Economist about him is a good read.
     
  8. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    That's unlikely. Hamas enjoys some support and are the most visible opposition to him, but hardly a player big enough to simply take all of his influence.
    Arafat's disappearance from the scene is good news in the sense that there will now be dialogue and conflict between various Palestinian parties on the issues. Israel isn't "Sharon" - Sharon has to deal with elections, a cabinet, opposition parties, hostile newspapers, etc. Arafat does not - he has far more control over the PA that goes unchallenged. Arafat is far more of an impediment to peace than Sharon is.

    The Economist is generally a good read. There's also something to be said for the idea that it would take a conservative hawk to make peace in Israel, since a liberal who tried that would be opposed by the conservatives in a knee jerk reaction. Because he's a right winger, his conciliatory steps carry more conviction for many.
     
  9. 352klr

    352klr Member

    Jan 29, 2001
    The Burgh of Edin

    As for Hamas filling it, that's the take I got from several Palestinian students around here as well as from a friend who did UN aidwork in Palestine this year, and one other who lived in Cairo for a year who has talked to his Palestinian friends on the subject. Sure, it's all anectdotal, but sometimes that's a lot better information than you'll find in papers. It will be interesting to watch this unfold when he dies.

    The most important question is whether or not his wife and daughter will continue to get a couple million a year that's supposed to go to refugees so they can continue their lives in Paris.
     
  10. sch2383

    sch2383 New Member

    Feb 14, 2003
    Northern Virginia
    The reason I don't have much faith in Sharon is that one of my professors has been very involved with an attempt for peace, and he has nothing good to say about Arafat or Sharon; I have taken many of my cues on this from him.
     
  11. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Sharon's no angel - but did you expect this pullout from Gaza?
    As for Hamas - I think there are many moderate Palestinians who'd be very, very unhappy with Hamas taking over. Nor will they be all that happy with religion, due to the remnants of the Baath undercurrents running through Palestinian intellectual circles.
     
  12. sch2383

    sch2383 New Member

    Feb 14, 2003
    Northern Virginia
    That move has really surprised me, I keep looking up, trying to see the other shoe that I think is out there.
     
  13. Labdarugo

    Labdarugo Member

    Dec 3, 2000
    Downwind
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Won't it be NOT pulling out of (at least some of) the West Bank settlements?
     
  14. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Since he never said he'd pull out, how's that the other shoe?
     
  15. DoyleG

    DoyleG Moderator
    Staff Member

    FC Edmonton
    Canada
    Jan 11, 2002
    Victoria, BC
    Club:
    FC Edmonton
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    The sooner he's pushing up dasies, the better off the world will be.

    Except of the course the Palestinians.

    Can you say "Civil War"?
     
  16. JPhurst

    JPhurst New Member

    Jul 30, 2001
    Jersey City, NJ
    The key is in the transition. First, there's the little problem of burying the guy. The concern is that Palestinians will demand that he be buried in or near the temple mount, and that riots can break out either from Palestinians or right wing Israelis trying to disrupt the funeral. Members of the far right National Union party have already said they will blockade any attempt to bury Arafat in Jerusalem. Haaretz reports that the IDF has already marked two potential grave sites, one in Abu Dis ("greater Jerusalem") in sight of the Temple Mount, and another in Gaza.

    After that, there is the question of succession. Who replaces Arafat, and the process by which he is replaced, is replete with pitfalls that could turn the territories into a version of Lebanon. I do not see Hamas or Islamic Jihad gaining enough power to replace him, and any leader would probably come from the PNA. There also is the possibility of prolonged leaderlessness.

    My feeling is that IF this can be managed, and some other official from the PNA can take over, then things will eventually be better for all involved. For quite some time, Arafat has been incompetant to plan a picnic, much less lead the Palestinians. And there are too many Israelis which just have a vitriolic hatred of the guy. Sharon has placed much of his reputation on refusing to negotiate with Arafat. In this regard, it doesn't matter even if Arafat could be an honest negotiatior; any replacement is addition by subtraction.

    There will still be problems, in that I think the leadership of both sides are unwilling or unable to make the necessary compromises. But if the transition is eventually resolved, it is possible that the U.S. and other actors will use the window of opportunity to encourage the parties back to the bargaining table. Already, some Israeli officials are using this to acknowledge that even with Sharon's unilateral "disengagement plan," they will need some Palestinian leader to coordinate logistics.
     
  17. Thomas A Fina

    Thomas A Fina Member

    Mar 29, 1999
    Hell
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Only if Sharon follows him.

    One down. One to go.
     
  18. Thomas A Fina

    Thomas A Fina Member

    Mar 29, 1999
    Hell
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My fear is that Palestine will fall into anarchy with no real leader stepping up to negotiate with. Plus I haven't heard about any "moderate" Palestinians.

    Israel not being Sharon is news to Ariel, that's for sure :). From what I have seen, Ariel Sharon is the ISraeli George Bush, with the two provisos that Sharon has fewer resources and is very competent.

    The whole "Only Nixon could go to China" deal

    The only hope that peace gets made with Sharon is either

    a) This ISraeli populace is less scared and more willing to stand up to Sharon. The Palestinian remnant will not let that happen.

    b) When Arafat goes, Sharon will veer back towards peace on his own because some of his stance is because he personally despises Arafat and would never let Arafat have any success.

    But I'm definitely not hopeful
     
  19. Garcia

    Garcia Member

    Dec 14, 1999
    Castro Castro
    He is being taken to a hospital in Paris via Jordan.
     
  20. FdL RASH

    FdL RASH New Member

    Jul 6, 2004
  21. Kappa18

    Kappa18 New Member

    Aug 9, 2002
    Toronto, Canada
    Club:
    Beitar Jerusalem FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Israel

    O jeeze, kinda reminds me of a similar occupation from the Jordanians, in which they carved out the West Bank and imposed huge restrictions and paralyzed most of what was left of the West Bank.

    But than again, there 'occupation' was between 1948-1967. Who would care, right? Afterall, they never declared a palestinian state. Infact, they ruined the chance to have a Palestinian state due to there aggression. As luck would have it, the Israelis came in, and whether the legitimacy of the Israeli 'Occupation" which is a disputed one, still is open and had been open since 1991 for negotiation on a deal to broker peace not only between the Palestinians and Israelis, but as well as Jordan, the Syrians and there B-itch, Lebanon........
     
  22. Dr Jay

    Dr Jay BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 7, 1999
    Newton, MA USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Kappa, are you implying there exists a DOUBLE STANDARD ?

    I'm shocked...shocked !

    Arabs countries oppressing fellow Muslims - no problem.

    Infidels oppressing Muslims - JIHAD !
     
  23. sardus_pater

    sardus_pater Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    Sardinia Italy EU
    Club:
    Cagliari Calcio
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Hi Kappa

    1- The territories are not disputed or better they are disputed only in Israeli opinion.
    The rest of the world and officially the UN multiple times stated they are and remain Occupied Territories.

    2- You should explain why palestinians shouldn't have the right to their independent state because the king of Jordan didn't let them when Jordan occupied the land.

    3- You should explain why if Jordan "ruined the chance to have a Palestinian state" during their occupation it means that the territories transform into "disputed" ones and israel occupation becomes "legitimate" (see point 1).

    You seem to say that given the fact that Jordan fvcked the palestinians this constitutes a valid motive for israel to fvck them harder.

    http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

    2 states in the 67 borders that's what fair.

    We all shouldn't give any space to the fanatic ppl who want more than that.
    Those that dream about Israel destroyed coupled with antisemitic moronities and/or plain cynicism and those that dream about a greater Israel coupled with biblical moronities and/or plain cynicism.

    On topic, Arafat is a man and sooner or later will die (believe me).
    Not really optimistic that something will really change for good but hey I would like to be positively surprised.
     
  24. frappe

    frappe New Member

    Aug 6, 2003
    Sharon is the biggest terrorist and I hate how people portray the Palestinians as terrorists. If I came to your house and took it away from you while killing your wife and children and I seek revenge does that make me a terrorist. As for the Gaza Strip, its miles and miles of wasteland where only a couple of thousand of Jewish settlers called it home. Not even the Israelis wanted to live there. The whole world is against Israel but the United States. Thank god for the EU now putting pressure on Israel now that there's no Russia to rival Americas superpower status
     
  25. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    Since that didn't happen, what in the world is your point?

    And a million Palestinians. Its also not a wasteland.

    People dislike Jews. Boy, there's a shock. I must have missed the "Jewish Love in Day" in 1941.

    Ah yes, the French, continuing their proud Dreyfuss connections. I wonder if Degas will have something to say about this from beyond the grave, or perhaps Arouet?
     

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