Are you STILL saying the economy is strong? I think the difference in how we see the world is you live in Ted Kazinski's shack now. Movies and leisure (like playing indoor soccer) are still OK, but my industry (for example) was down 35%. The stock market is down 40%. First Mariner Bank's stock is down 98% (from 20.00 a share to .56). Major corporations are dropping like flies. We're losing over 500,000 jobs a month now. So God bless you. You'll be the first person we come to when we need a job (actually I HAVE worked for you before as a scorekeeper and a ref, but I only lasted a week as a ref).
oh I thought he meant in general and included professional teams yes, some leagues may be up because some people have discretionary funds that they can spend on themselves to do something and it is for something that lasts several weeks But for people to spend an average of $50 or so to go to what 10 home games - thats $500 or more and that my friend can be a lot of money to lots people - 1/2 a mortgage , food for 3 weeks or a month My kid plays on a soccer team - I can get these kids to pay for the season weekly but not all up front because their families do not have that much up front they have to make payments and to be honest I have been shorted because I put a lot of the money myself and then collected I am not complainng about that because then these kids got to play
Okay lets use a little Tom Higginson math on our current Indoor situation. TEAMS: Last year: 17 professional teams (9 MISL, 4 AISL, 4 CMISL) This year: 20 professional teams (5 EHSL, 4 XSL, 11 PSAL) So this is an increase of 17.65% ATTENDANCE: Last Year: MISL 9 teams average 4,000 = 36,000 AISL 4 teams average 150 = 600 CMISL 4 teams average 250 = 1,000 Total base line of 37,600 This Year: EHSL 5 teams average 3,500 = 17,500 XSL 4 teams average 3,500 = 14,000 PSAL 11 teams average 1,000 = 11,000 Total base line of 42,500 Attendance increase of 8.85% So if we use Higginson numbers Indoor is doing great this season. So Higginson take this and stick it where the sun doesn't shine. Because we all know Indoor sucks this year just like our economy.
My point was not an argument about the economony but an argument about attitude. It's easy to sit around and find blame for something not working and it' s never the person's fault that is in charge of the situation. At some point, hopefully, in your life, you figure it out that those that sit around and search for excuses why things don't work are best left to hang out with each other and those that do something about it, work a little harder, a little longer, a little smarter, and don't see it the same way as everybody else, manager to make it. It's so interesting that everybody on this forum that claims they want indoor to succeed and the sole guy that actually makes money at it is butchered all the time.
I can't disagree with any of this. If you get butchered it's because you came off sounding like Marie Antoinette. Wait, are you the sole guy making money at indoor or is it Ed Hale? He gets butchered a lot more than you.
I am not arguing with you You brought up club ball - hey my kid plays and the arena he is at is going all day - no doubt but the situation in indoor pro soccer - and I do not sit around complaining - is that these are tough times for people to spend money on an average of 50 or more per game is tough - the general population is worried about money That is a fact - watch the news - people are getting laid off / businesses closing or shutting down - foreclosures I try to get friends and people to go Storm games all the time I speak highly of them when I am out But people say they can go to a game but not everyone of them - just cannot afford it right now - not at top of list of priorities Like I said - let's hope and pray that 2009 is a more lucrative year for everybody
To all in all the threads - live this simple rule of life and you will be a much happier person - life will feel a little better & you may enjoy it more: I like life Life likes me Life and I fairly fully agree Life is fine Life is good 'Specially mine, which is just as it should be I like pouring the wine and why not? Life's a pleasure that I deny not I like life Here and now Life and I made a mutual vow 'Till I die Life and I We'll both try to be better somehow And if life were a woman She would be my wife I like life Life likes me Ghost of Christmas Present Good, good I make life a perpetual spree Ghost of Christmas Present Eating food Drinking wine Thinking who'd like the privelege to dine me I like drinking the drink I'm drinking And I like thinking the thoughts I'm thinking I like songs I like dance I hear music and I'm in a trance Tra-la-la Oom-pah-pah Chances are we shall get up and prance Where there's music and laughter Happiness is rife Why? Because I like life! Where there's music and laughter Happiness is rife Why? Because I like life! Drinking life That's the thing Makes a man want to suddenly sing Sing and dance And perchance Seeing life from a different stance When you learn how to live it Life is free of strife That is why I like life! That's the secret of living Any man can fly! Why? Because I like life!
That is actually a sad irony around here Tom. I know most of you disagree with me on this, in fact, I think everyone disagree's with me on this but I'd go one step (100 steps?) further and say that Fresh Money actually kept this sinking ship called indoor soccer afloat a lot longer than anyone else could have. We all grumbled and groaned about the guy but (imho) what we didn't see is he held this mess together until 2008. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Kenn or Drew F was the cheesecake, you see, a little information is a dangerous thing in cheesecakes head.
With all the jokes about your age Paul, I'm going to have to allege senility for your comment. In fact, it was Tom who sniffed out Ryan as a phony years ago. It didn't help that people like Paul Garofolo were setting policy in the new MISL, but MISL2 gets my vote as the worst pro indoor league in history (too early to rank the new leagues). 1. MISL 2. CISL 3. NPSL 4. NASL 5. WISL 6. EISL 7. MISL2
Ya well the RMD out of my IRA would be put to a wager saying that MISL2 was ahead of EISL. You rank NPSL ahead of NASL-indoor too? and WISL? The NPSL and WISL merger was (on the surface) a merger of equals.
You're right, he did keep the league alive. I don't think he was forthright with the new ownership groups that came in and any league that needs future expansion fees to survive is not economically viable. I felt good about him the first time I met him and interviewed him. The second and third times I did it was pretty clear he wasn't going to try to honor any of his original answers from the first interview and after that I never trusted him and knew it was but a matter of time. If things were improving you could argue that it was a noble effort to keep the league alive. I don't think they ever improved. The owners have to make money and if they don't, there won't be any more. If the focus is on them making money, there will be a never ending list of people wanting to get into the game.
The EISL/MISL2 matchup is debatable. The EISL at least did less damage to the game reputation and advanced a few novel ideas. I really don't know where to put the NASL. It's the only league I didn't follow as I was too young. I didn't see any EISL games, but I followed it. The NPSL for all my problems with it, actually had some decent years from 1990-1997 and it lasted way longer than the WISL. I certainly enjoyed the WISL more than the NPSL, but it only lasted four years and never had more than, what seven teams in a season?
I would put the NASL at just about equal with MISL 1. My reasoning is that at that time, both leagues had about the best talent you could get for indoor, and both leagues were somewhat solvent. Some if the NASL teams (Atlanta Chiefs, for one) actually did better on the field and at the gate than they ever did outdoors. I remember hearing a rumor at one time that the New York Arrows had done some market studies to possibly move to Atlanta. As you know, a few of the NASL teams even played in MISL 1 (Chicago Sting, SJ Earthquakes, MN Strikers, SD Sockers, Rochester Lancers (as NY Arrows)). I have no idea what happened to MISL 1 that would have made it succumb to the bidding war with the AISA/NPSL/MISL2, seeing that to me, it was always superior. The AISA/NPSL/MISL2 just seemed to me to be a "bus league" that just happened to get a better bus, but now, they're back to piling into a bunch of cars. I did see an EISL game (1998). I'd put it about where MISL2 ended up, except it was in smaller cities. The Savannah RugRatz really sucked, but still got a decent crowd the night I went (the announced crowd was around 3000, and the place was pretty well packed). Just my opinion.
You do make a valid point about the overall damage MISL2 did to the game. The EISL didn't leave this kind of nuclear winter we are experiencing now. What about SISL.............that ended up turning ok, if you like USL.
I never bought into that argument. The MISL players that went to the NPSL were past their prime. Guys like Andy Chapman, Batata, Zoran Savic, Oscar Albuquerque, Pato Margetic, Gino DiFlorio and Drago weren't doing a whole lot in the MISL anymore and they revitalized their careers in the NPSL. But I doubt anyone in the MISL wanted to fight the NPSL for those kind of players. I don't think the NPSL had the money to really attract the best MISL players and I doubt the MISL paid big money for the Mirko Castillos and George Pastors that they brought the other way.
I kind of look at it like if the ASL, or the first USL, had somehow stayed alive after the NASL went belly-up (well, USL did last about 4 months longer than the NASL before they died). That's why I said MISL2 was just a bus league that got a better bus, before they had to trade it for a car caravan.
This was an article on comcast just thought some of you might find this article interesting Off-the-Field Losses Crimp Team Owners By Matthew Futterman, The Wall Street Journal Interactive Edition 16 hours ago Loading... Must Read?Thank YouYes 42 For all the talk of slumping ticket sales and sponsorships, the most troubling scenario for the sports industry is the growing trend of team owners beset by financial problems in their principal businesses. The issue crystallized last month when Tribune Co., owner of the Chicago Cubs, filed for bankruptcy-court protection. The problems have been spreading as the souring economy diminishes the fortunes of team owners. That jeopardizes the essential ingredient of the sports business: rich people who can afford a really expensive hobby. "The willingness or tolerance for future losses is very, very low," says Allen and Co.'s Steve Greenberg, an investment banker to the sports industry and former deputy commissioner of Major League Baseball. "More owners are looking to operate at break-even or better. The problem is, it's hard to turn a $15 million to $25 million loss into break-even in a short period of time." Unlike other recessions, this one threatens to wipe out sports owners who were recently willing and able to put up with meager profits or annual losses because of rising team values and the perks of the investment, such as the celebrity status. Consider the National Hockey League's Phoenix Coyotes. Owner Jerry Moyes controls trucking company Swift Transportation Co. and is coping with a severe downturn in the U.S. shipping industry a year after taking on $2.5 billion in debt to take the company he founded private. The Coyotes are expected to incur a loss of as much as $25 million this season, despite modest growth in attendance, say people familiar with the matter. Bill Daly, deputy commissioner of the NHL, says the league is monitoring the situation with Swift. "If it is a sale that has to happen, we'll work with him on that," Mr. Daly says. Few financial details about Swift are available, and Mr. Moyes declined to comment, but Swift debt in December traded between 38 and 57 cents on the dollar, an indication the company is distressed, according to Scott Anderson, analyst at Robert W. Baird & Co. Many owners' primary businesses incurred deep losses in 2008. As a result, league officials and investment bankers fear a market flooded with teams for sale at a time when potential buyers are few and credit for acquiring sports teams is difficult to secure, which would lead to shrinking team values. New York Mets owner Fred Wilpon has incurred substantial losses from his investments with Bernard Madoff, though the Wilpon family has insisted those losses won't affect the team. "The whole world has flipped," says Bob DuPuy, president and chief operating officer of MLB, referring to the fact that in some cases the sports team may be the healthiest part of an owner's portfolio. Tribune, which is controlled by real-estate developer Sam Zell, plans to sell the Cubs, their ballpark and a stake in a local sports network to generate as much as $1 billion. Meanwhile, fellow publisher New York Times Co. is looking to raise cash by selling its 17.5% stake in the parent company of the Boston Red Sox and related assets. The Cubs and Red Sox are profitable. For owners of franchises that are unprofitable, slumping team revenue and the recession are a discouraging combination. "The 401(k)s and their equivalents that belong to these owners are cut in half like everyone else's," says David Carter, director of the sports-business program at the University of Southern California. "Their ability to secure financing and continue operating is going to get hurt." Also feeling the crunch is Forest City Enterprises Inc., the real-estate developer behind Bruce Ratner, principal owner of the National Basketball Association's New Jersey Nets. The company said last month it was ceasing all development projects, after its stock price fell from $60 in 2007 to under $6. Forest City, which owns 23% of the Nets, pegged losses for the team at $30 million through the first nine months of 2008. The Nets have lost more than $100 million since Mr. Ratner acquired the team in 2004, forcing him to slash payroll. Forest City still wants to develop a $950 million arena in Brooklyn for the Nets, but the project is stalled amid legal wrangling and financing problems. NBA Commissioner David Stern says Forest City's ability to secure financing for the arena is hampered now, adding: "Our hope is that will improve in 2009." Only in the National Football League do owners appear somewhat insulated. While certain NFL owners have seen their primary business portfolios devalued, the league has a strict limit on player salaries and a revenue system where lucrative national television contracts allow many teams practically to break even before they sell their first ticket. That makes hanging onto NFL teams easier, and as a result, the Detroit Lions, which Sunday became the first NFL team to finish the regular season 0-16, shouldn't be affected by the downturn in owner William Clay Ford Sr.'s family car business, nor should the playoff-bound Miami Dolphins suffer because co-owner Stephen M. Ross, founder and chief executive of Related Cos., has seen the commercial real-estate business get sacked. Some hard-hit owners maintain they are well-positioned to weather the storm. Houston Rockets owner Leslie Alexander has seen his 20% stake in First Marblehead Corp., once valued at nearly $1 billion, plunge to about $15 million. The company, which packages student loans and sells them to investors, saw its business evaporate in 2008. Its shares fell more than 90% last year to about $1. Mr. Alexander says he isn't worried. His original investment in the company was $4 million and he cashed out more than $250 million before 2008. He also has a diversified portfolio that includes real estate, a vineyard and an online clothing store. He says the key to his strategy was avoiding substantial debt. Write to Matthew Futterman at matthew.futterman@wsj.com Dow Jones & Company, Inc. Loading...
Thoughts to ponder.. with the multi million dollar salaries and losses that are projected for alot of high profile sports franchises, anyone think it's possible this could be a good thing for "niche" sports like indoor soccer in the future? After all, if some NBA teams happen to be struggling, these guys who make $20 million per year aren't going to take a pay cut. Some owners may be inclinded to just sell their franchise, and possibly look for other avenues in the sports industry...
I think the Yankees should give Mark Teixeira another $20 million, you know, in case he gets hungry later.