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Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by DRB300, Jul 6, 2014.
Should FIFA eliminate the 3rd place game do the fans really give a hoot?
I already posted that!
it's prob all about tele sponsorship, that they keep the 3rd pl match
I've had enough for this evening. LvG played for a 1-0 win and wasn't successful. Argentina played to defend to the maximum and hope that Messi would work some magic and wasn't successful. 120 minutes in the quarterfinal was more debilitating to the Dutch than the Argentina win. Good run in this tournament for us was made a little bitter by the penalty shoot out but such is life. I would not have fancied our chances against Germany with two such OT matches in row.
Good night and have a great time wondering what might have been but wasn't. I've got some better things to do now.
What save today would not have been stopped by Krul though? There were some saves, just not high level ones.
The problem is that the Dutch academy's do not produce complete keepers. I am afraid that the policy makers at the clubs or KNVB do not pick that up from this game. We just go on, treating penalty's like an eventuality, not a crucial part of the game. I just have no clue how Cillessen had the best penalty stopper from the Netherlands right at his club and not learned something from him in this regard. Mind boggling.
Anyway I can live with this result as we as a nation once again get found out with penalty's. Sillier is that finally we did it right vs CR, but then messed up again 1 game later. People that like to hit their heads over and over against the same rock get exactly that. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. How can you go into a penalty series with a keeper that has never stopped a penalty in his professional career? Not at NEC, not at Ajax, not with the Netherlands. Never. And then expect to win it? How?
The fact that there is actually a rationality defending the situation, like it is a "forced decision" to put Cillessen on goal, tells everything about the state of the Dutch keeper development. This game is feed back for the production line more than ever. I like to see a keeper in goal that can stop balls, can kick a ball and does not look like pissing his pants when a penalty is aimed at him. If that is too much to ask, then we deserve to be kicked out before a final. Penalty's have killed us so often, if we still not get it, we deserve this for being stupid.
A keeper is maybe the most important position in a team.
Losing hurt, but at the end of the day, this Dutch team over-achieved. I didn't think they would make it out of the group, let alone had a run into the semi. LvG worked wonder with such limited resource (inexperienced defense, loss of Strootman, etc.) Kudos to the team. There are also many other positives... Stef De Vrij and Daley Blind grew in the tournament, I was a huge skeptics of both before the tourney - but they held their grounds, and I am sure they're right in the mix going forward. Wijnaldum, Depay, Janmaat, BMI, Fer, and Clasie (to a lesser extent) showed glimpse of their capabilities. Very encouraging. I don't think Robben, RvP and Sneijder have much left in their tanks, but if they stay relatively injury-free, I think they can make a last run in the next Euro. I heard Kuyt is retiring, such a classy and loyal servant. Hats off to him.
I'm clinging to the thought that our magnificent three have at least one more tournament in them. God, it's depressing to think of them retiring from national football.
I agree with most of this except I thought Wijnaldum was mediocre.
I thought De Vrij had a very solid game today. I really hope Clasie starts Saturday, I expect he will
Martin Lipton ✔ @MartinLipton Follow
Van Gaal suggests 2 players declined to take the first penalty, so he turned to Vlaar. Asked who, he said it was a 'humiliating question'
I just don't understand how so many keepers can make it to the professional level without having a clue how to stop a penalty. A lot of keepers look like they've conceded the goal before the ball is even kicked. Look at the CR keeper for example. Plays brilliantly for 120 minutes, but then looks absolutely clueless when faced with penalties. It's like keepers just don't what they're supposed to do to stop them
Blame LVG for killing his confidence.
A few more points:
BMI should never be selected again, especially when there's potentially better options available at his position (Rekik, Viergever, I'd even put Vlaar there ahead of BMI if we decide to revert back to a 4-man defense under Hiddink). He was poor throughout the entire tournament, and has zero clue on how to play when he gets yellow-carded (he was lucky not to pick another one after bum-rushing an Argentina player). He was also getting skinned on that flank by Lavezzi time and time again (as was Blind).
Also, midfield is a big problem area for us. There is no creativity and pace. The link between midfield and our forwards is nonexistent, which is likely why we play from the back so much relying on hoofing balls over the defense, and hoping that Robben or RvP get on the end of them.
I've been a proponent of using a Stroot----Afellay----MvG midfield, and I've seen DRB300 mention this few quite a few times as well (ironically, I believe Afellay used to play DM under Hiddink at PSV). They can play 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, or even 4-2-1-3.
If we use Afellay as a 10, he won't be as much of a defensive liability as Sneijder. Most importantly, these three will bring PACE which is what we're lacking at the moment. However, it will be up to both Ibi and Ginkel to use this summer transfer window wisely in order to find a decent club where they can get minutes.
I don't fully buy it. I would think that he should be extra motivated to prove his worth against penalty shots
I am sorry guys
Great tournament nonetheless, you gave some terrific moments.
honestly, the draw was favourable to Argentina. Not only the group and teams they had to play, but the minimal amount of travelling. the Dutch looked tired today, it was too much to ask of them.
in the end its a Germany v Argentina final, always seems to be the same countries in these finals.
U okay friend?
Portugal is our bogey team but I wish them the best too. They were, contrary to popular belief, among the least divers and embellishers this tournament.
Interesting to see whether Hiddink and Blind can do the same.
Hiddink hasn't the reputation of being a tactical genius.
Those were sick times. All painful.
The total implosions of 1990, 1996 and 2012 are maybe the most painful, because the country presented their darker sides in those tournaments.
Afellay will never wear the NT shirt again; he really is not good enough and it's questionable whether he is fully recovered. He relied on speed rather than technical ability and IMO was marginally better on the wing than in midfield.
Would we have done better with Strootman in this WC? I'm not sure. van Gaal adopted a defense first approach to help out the inexperienced back line and that back line performed beyond anyone's expectations. de Jong was always going to be first choice for DM because of his performance over the last 18 months for club and country. We are all aware of his limitation on offense but honestly can anyone remember him turning the ball over in this tournament? I cannot and his passing was pretty decent. I felt Sneijder did an OK job on defense but his precise free and corner kicks left something to be desired in yesterday's match. Would any of the other MFs hit hat wonderful strike against Chile? The weakest players in the MF were Wijnaldum and de Guzman who basically hovered at the midline in every match. I can only surmise that this was van Gaal's plan and it was somewhat surprising when the team needed to crank up the offense since Wijnaldum in particular is a decent striker of the ball and had some nice goals for PSV this past season.
Clasie's passing in the second half yesterday was very good and he has the best handling speed of any MF on team including Sneijder who has arguably slowed down. I thought that was a good substitution for van Gaal since de Jong cold not go the full 90. There has been concern about whether Clasie is a 90 minute player as he was often subbed off by Koeman in the latter stages of matches this past season. It is a shame that Feyenoord are again losing players since they would have a decent chance perhaps of CL qualification which would give the youngsters added competitive experience but we all know money trumps club.
the biggest thing that will help the midfield is the maturation of the back four into a solid defensive line. With increased ability and confidence, Hiddink could go back to a 4-3-3 which is more attacking. None of the wing backs really went forward with any regularity in this tournament which led to increased reliance on Robben to make things happen.
I'll have more complete thoughts on the various positions in a separate post.
The sun came up this morning and life goes on. I was disappointed by the shootout loss yesterday but that's life; only one team ever wins these tournaments and it was always doubtful that we were going to be that team. Here are my thoughts on the team.
Manager - van Gaal did an exceptional job getting this team prepared and his lineup and substitution decisions were first rate. Most of us were skeptical that we would make it out of the group given the high quality of the opposition yet we won all three matches. His choice to play a 5-3-2 formation looked like a clear defensive choice because of the inexperience of the back line. Although such a formation can become more offensive by pushing the wingbacks up (3-5-2 in the mode of Juventus) this was seldom the case and it was quite rare to see Blind/Kuyt/Janmaat really driving forward to deliver crosses; they were more content to get the ball just before the midline and then pass either horizontally or back. Unfortunately, this formation sacrifices the necessary width on offense if the wingbacks don't go forward and there were matches where a shift back to a 4-3-3 was required to get more attacking options into play.
In retrospect, the blow out of Spain was an aberration (as was the Germany win over Brazil); after we took the lead in the 2nd half Spain's will was shattered and they looked confused on the pitch. We all know that the final score could have and probably should have been much worse with some clinical finishing. The remaining matches were what I expected, hard fought narrow victories.
The one issue that I have yet to reconcile is why van Persie started in the final two matches. IMO he was not fully fit and he seemed to be more affected by the heat and humidity than any of the other players. Others have commented on this as well and if there is one fault to be ascribed to van Gaal it was the "devotion" to van Persie. Would Huntelaar made a difference against Argentina? We will never know but I'm not sure the formation would have been optimal for a player with his abilities.
Keeper - As an Ajax fan I was frankly stunned that Cillessen got the #1 shirt. He's a decent keeper but not exceptional. I had thought Krul would be #1. Cillessen did a good job and did not concede any goals because of mistakes. He is good on the ball and quick to realize when he needs to come out in sweeper mode (I doubt Krul or Vorm would have aggressively challenged Messi on the 'off side' break away). Cillessen also doesn't hold up play as much as Krul or Vorm (who really slows things down IMO). I won't be surprised or disappointed if Krul moves up to #1 when the Euro qualifications begin. I'm less troubled by the PK issue than others. I don't think Krul was anything special against CR; their players were gassed and maybe the mind games got to them. Neither of the two stops were anything special. Cillessen is not a particularly good shot blocker as we know from Ajax action where Vermeer is clearly superior (I've often stated that Vermeer is one of the best shot blockers around but the rest of his game is horrible). Would Krul have done any different yesterday? We will never know.
Back Three - This was really a revelation to me. I along with many of you thought this would be our weakest part of the lineup yet it was one of the strongest. Martins Indi was surprisingly the weakest player but still better than average. Vlaar was superb all tournament long and I think a good case can be made for his inclusion in the all-WC team. de Vrij was not far behind. They kept their positions well and never gave up ordinary goals (Cahill's goal was of the van Basten spectacular variety). When Martins Indi was out because of injury or tactical substitution Blind slotted in on the left and played very well. No criticism of these players is warranted IMO.
Wing Backs - Janmaat/Blind/Kuyt did what was asked of them: defend first and then move up the field cautiously. Janmaat was benched because of poor play but came back to do a nice job yesterday. As I noted above the one problem with this cautious approach is that the team could not get numerical superiority in the attacking zone. When one looks at Juventus implementation of this formation the wingbacks are far more aggressive on offense by design (but there manager probably has much more confidence in their keeper and back three defenders). When van Gaal changed to a 4-3-3 the wingbacks dropped back to become the more traditional fullbacks but still didn't push up the field as much as we happening at the club level. I think the play of the players was very good given the constraints of the formation and tactics adopted by the manager.
Midfield - In keeping with a defensive approach, the midfield was always two defenders and one attacker. Sneijder was the offensive minded player and was pretty much average throughout the tournament. He had one superb goal and hit the post on several occasions. His defensive work was good but his free kicks were below average which was surprising since this was always a key part of his game and something that should not diminish with age (look at how dangerous Pirlo still is at the age of 35!). He neither helped nor hurt the team. de Jong was the DM and did just what was expected of him. He had a very good tournament despite missing some matches because of the groin injury. When he was out Blind slotted into that position and while there was a drop off in play it wasn't significant (arguably he could have done better on the dos Santos goal). the team had real problems with the third midfield position and maybe this was a problem of design. de Guzman got the start in the first game but was unsteady and not very good. Wijnaldum played the majority of the time and while better did turn the ball over too much and was never much of an attacking threat at all which was quite surprising given how many goals he scored for PSV. Quite frankly Fer would have been a better option given his brief play but unfortunately he was hurt and missed the last matches; don't know whether he would have made a difference yesterday.
Forwards - Not much more to say about Robben other than he deserves to be on the all WC team. He created danger every time he had the ball. He was pretty much the offensive key to this team. van Persie was superb against Spain and his goal to tie it up in the first half is the stuff dreams are made of. However, one needs to truthfully say that he looked quite poor the remainder of the tournament (I'll not dwell anymore on the decision to keep him in the lineup during the last two games, it's been dealt with by DRB and others). Depay had some very good moments and some not so good moments and I'll chalk these up to inexperience. He really needs to learn when he can beat defenders and when he needs to look for other options. At his point in his career he's no Robben but the potential is clearly there. He will be a starter going forward. Huntelaar was under used and this is the mystery of it all (don't think I'll say much more here). Lens was ordinary.
Summary - This team over achieved thanks to solid defensive play and Arjen Robben. My expectations going in was a loss to Spain, maybe a draw with Chile and a hard fought win over Australia. Making the third semifinal in the last four WC's we played in (doesn't count 2002 when we didn't qualify) was a testament to van Gaal's organizational and tactical skills. We need to especially single out Kuyt for some wonderful play all over the field; his inspiration will be missed.
Unlike the previous tournaments, when I often cursed the defensive line, this time I am actually very encouraged to see the defensive effort. Could very well be because my expectation hit rock bottom.. All joking aside, I think many will agree that soon we will see a decent batch of defenders coming through. Whether or not they will become world-class players, that's a different discussion, but at least we have very good options moving forward. Vlaar will be around for a while. De Vrij made a sizable leap in this WC, and I believe in him getting better (especially if he moves to a top-tier league). Blind did well in the back 3 or as a LWB, although remain to be seen if he will stay long term in defense or making a switch to midfield. I don't mind BMI, he makes silly fouls a lot, but he is really competitive and brings toughness. Janmaat is probably a slight disappointment for me in terms of his contribution in attack, but he is a willing runner and defends well (great covering header denying Hugain!). And then you add the likes of Veltman and Kongolo who tasted what it likes playing in a big stage, AND other youngsters who missed the cut but expected to get better (like Rekik, Van Aanholt).
That's a pretty solid foundation that will enable 4-3-3. I expect Nigel De Jong will be part of the building block in midfield, so when he does play, he doesn't waste space by sitting like a guard dog in front of the defensive line, but rather brings a more balanced defense/attack approach.
Anyway i hope if we stick with 5-3-2 we stop by passing the midfield. I get need for quick transitions but if nothing is on give it to the midfield to create! Also a bit more pace in the back line wouldnt kill
I think we can all be positive about the future but yeah can we sort out the penalties