MLS Hater Jeff Kessler Finds New Dupes

well the whole "but you can't say that the women earn the ussf less in match, tv and sponsorship revenue because we put out this chart that shows some future prediction in 2017 that says they might make more in game revenue" seems to be bogus.

Steven Goff put out a pretty telling set of numbers that show even if you exclude Spanish language viewers, just english tv broadcasts that the USMNT has far higher viewership than the USWNT .... if you include Spanish language that disparity will only get even bigger.

The game revenue is a bit harder to compare since each team has their WC on different cycles but the budget chart the "women bring in as much as men" put out clearly shows that over the 2 years that were "actuals" and not "projections" which covered 2014 and 2015 (a WC cycle for each team) the men's games out earned the women's by quite a margin.

The other thing i saw only briefly mentioned is that the USWNT has a number of players on "permanent salary" and not just per game salary. It is part of how they make it possible to put the stars into the women's professional league. i've always thought this was pretty bad for the actual being able to choose a team as it basically means there are some players you have to call since you are already paying them anyway but aside from that there is likely some ~$1M a year being spent on this alone (each is paid $75k and i have to assume that some 10-15 players are on these yearly salaries from the USSF).

I also have no doubt that the FIFA pay out to the USSF for the mens WC far exceeds that of the women's WC, probably by a few orders of magnitude.

And lastly what they get paid is collectively bargained, so what is "fair" is what they've accepted. This is likely a negotiation ploy and if so fair enough. But it is clear the WNT does not bring in as much money to the USSF as the MNT on any front ... so those who think this is a serious argument are kind of deluded. And sure the WNT is more "successful" on the pitch, but since that doesn't translate into more earnings it is irrelevant when it comes to getting paid. I'd be interested to see how the USWNT pay compares to any other WNT in the world (i'd imagine favorably).

I don't know much about this Kessler guy but he seems like an instigator. but frankly the USWNT could go away tomorrow along with the pro league and i wouldn't really notice or care.

 

It's Kessler?!?!?! Oh, dang! The USWNT is screwed.

 

Jason Davis devoted pretty much his entire Soccer Morning program to this topic yesterday. Mr. Davis thinks that the Women should get the same compensation OR MORE than the Men because.....well just because. Same work, same pay, they win stuff, fairness.....bla, bla, bla. He then spent an hour babbling about SUM and how the Women are actually paying the salaries of MLS players. And repeatedly asserted that the Women generate more revenue than the Men. Which is patently false. He even mocked Landon Donovan for suggesting that players should be compensated proportionally based on the revenue generated for USSF.

Question for Mr Davis. You host a radio show. So do Dan Patrick and Sean Hannity. By your logic all three of you should earn the same wages. After all, you do essentially the same work right? Your shows are all carried on SiriusXM Radio. Or should Patrick and Hannity earn much greater compensation than you do based on the revenue they generate? If you can't make that argument, then your argument for equal pay for the Women's National Team players is broken.

 

I do think some of the stuff "around the edges" in the suit is valid. The pay structures for bonuses, number of games, etc. should be the same between men and women, as well as the travel accommodations and such.

I really question that "make as much revenue as the men" statement though. That seems to be taking advantage of where each team is in their 4-year cycle and trying to strike while the iron is hot so to speak.

Also the whole "equal pay for equal work" comments I'm seeing really don't apply. There are a number of reasons the women's game and the men's game are not equal work just very similar work (quality of opposition, travel requirements for players in Europe, etc.).

 

It's a CBA negotiating tactic. The women were and are justifiably pissed at disparities in the travel and facilities they've had when compared to the men. This clown presented them with this suit -- at no cost to them, I'm sure -- to have more leverage for the new CBA and a microscopic chance at a big payout.

And you know what? Even though he's a scumball and there is probably not a lot of merit to the suit, I'm glad he did it because the fed keeps making big, expensive mistakes and I like the idea of that moron Sunil having yet one more headache.

 

Exactly.

And those are the items that will get resolved (likely to the USWNT players' benefit) as their new CBA is worked through and finalized with US Soccer.

This lawsuit is basically the hardest line/stance that the US women's players (union?) can and would reasonably take at this (early?) point in their labor negotiations.

This is a business and labor negotiation, and I don't know specifically what it has to do with MLS (other than the tangential or direct impact SUM has in the US Soccer business and revenues).


Edit: beaten to it, so read the first key sentence at -- http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/mls-hater-jeff-kessler-finds-new-dupes.2030546/#post-33802961

 

There is so much garbage coming out (initially in the NY Daily News article) that I'm afraid of even attempting to discuss much of this on the women's board. There are a bunch of places where statements are being thrown around with no context or reason while alluding to shady/bad SUM and The Don. People are just eating up "equal pay" and some revenue numbers that aren't the full story. From a financial and perhaps even development standpoint, USSF would love to go to pay to play.

 

This thread's title is horrible and unhelpful to what could be an interesting discussion, imo.

Again, not that this discussion necessarily belongs here, unless the focus is in the weeds of the SUM-USSoccer business relationships.

 

Nothing to see here, folks ... If the suit has no merit, it'll be swiftly struck down. Which always makes it that much sweeter to see their disappointment in the end. In this country stuff like this is inevitable. Consider yourself lucky that we're not being sued by Trump for treating him unfairly. Get this law suit out of the way, set the required legal precedent so everyone understands what's happening, and move on.

 

USSF has come out with their stance.

http://www.espnfc.com/united-states...ti-and-us-soccer-refute-claims-by-womens-team
http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2016/03/31/sunil-gulati-uswnt-equal-pay-wage-discrimination-lawsuit
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/socce...swnt-wage-inequality-complaint-040842791.html

 

I'm very skeptical about the USWNT stance.

In 2012 the Fed saved women's soccer. Anyone that says anything different is ignorant or a moron.

The moment the WNT hits a nice little jackpot they turn around and holdout on any negotiations and go straight to court.

Has the Fed made some bad mistakes? You betcha. But holding out is a low, low thing to do.

 

Just a few of my thoughts.

1) If it is about the money, the WNT had to choose the right time to file the lawsuit. They want to cash in on the two most revenue generating years. The next two years are going to be much lower. Their current CBA (valid or not) pays them less than what they should receive given revenue generated at the world cup. However, the CBA/addendum was generated in 2012-2013

2) It is conveniently left off that the WNT members are salaried employees and that what is a match bonus for them is really a one time stipend for the men.

3) The WNT have comfort that Ellis is not going to cut any player out of the pool unless injury or if they are really out of form. The WNT got the last coach fired despite losing just four games because he was essentially too "laissez faire". IMO, Sermanni calling in a bunch of uncapped / neglected players threatened the veterans. I don't think this threat is there anymore with Ellis.

4) So are they going ever release the NWSL pay structure/salaries and how much of the league is supported by the national federations. There are several teams that do very well. But is it enough to eat the costs of the league.

5) The WNT has a point about unequal treatment with the per diem, hotel accommodations, and flight. But unlike the MNT which gets pressure from the players club teams if the players are not rested, what pressure does the WNT get from clubs. Ellis rarely calls up anyone outside the US and the NWSL is really a showcase of national team players with a few fillers than an actual developmental league, unlike the European club teams.

6) The Turf. Should the WNT play on grass. Yes. Does that limit the venues. Yes. The question is if playing in limited venues is acceptable. the MNT lays grass because they fill enough seats with certain opponents for the cost not to be prohibitive. The WNT has not reached that point yet.

7) There is no better face for a pay equality fight than the WNT. Especially since they are seen as competitive and not as the most talented and deep team in the world for the last 20 years. Let's be real, who is going to look negatively at a sport where the face are young fit white women. Womens basketball players are seen so much more differently.

EDIT: 8) To add on the 2017 Projections in which the WNT are projected to bring more revenue than the men does not include money from Copa which the USSF are scheduled to 15 mil plus.

 

Well, 2000, to be picky. The suit took a long time to go through the courts.

And I have to give all credit to Mark Semioli for his interview with me, which shed a lot of light on how this all came to pass. He wouldn't quite say the suit was a "mistake," but if they knew it was going to take so danged long with such scant results, things would've been a little different.

 

Thank you, Sir, for "the Chewbacca Defense."

 

Re: 5) I thought there was basically a requirement that if you want to be called up to the WNT, you have to play in NWSL. Obviously they grandfathered (grandmothered?) in certain players, but I thought that was a big reason why Tobin Heath came back and other top level US players aren't going to play in France, England, etc.

Re: 8) That projection has to assume that the USWNT wins the Olympics and they have another victory tour, right? What if they don't win the Olympics? Are they going to have a post-Olympics silver medalist tour instead? What if they bomb out in the quarterfinals?

 

5)It is not technically required, but Euro teams follow the Fifa Window and only release players during the dates. The NWSL follows the USSF, Canada, and Mexican Fed requests for training camps. Euro players tend to be at a disadvantage and typically do not get called in. However, to keep your place in the lucrative WNT, you basically have to play in the NWSL. Which is why it is stupid for a non national team player to play for peanuts in the NWSL if Europe is available to them. At least the European peanuts are worth more.

8) Never has a projection been treated as fact and no one actually wants to look at it. The two worst things that could happen to the WNT is they strike and the replacements win gold. Which could actually happen. Or they bomb out and the revenue dries up.

 

I found some info on how much the USSF bankrolls the NWSL.

http://espn.go.com/espnw/news-comme...test-women-professional-soccer-league-success

The Fed says they have spent a total of 10 million investing into NWSL. I believe them.

 

The tour is happening no matter what. It just may not be called a Victory Tour or branded as a series.

 

Everything's going to be ok.

 

There is no justification for paying different per diems for women vs men. USMNT are getting 25% more per diem.

Name any other US corporation that does that.

Sunil Gulati needs to step down or be voted out.

 

Or... and hear me out... they could simply ask for that in their new CBA.

 

And they should have to do that because? Last time I checked to DoD had 1 flat per diem rate, not a scale based on if you were a female sailor or soldier? Or when I fly with a fellow female employee to spots across the country for work, amazingly they get the same per diem. The USSF should have a flat per diem rate for players regardless of gender. This isn't something that should have to be collectively bargained.

 

I agree. This doesn't seem like a thing you should have to bargain for.

 

I actually agree with both of these posts. It really should be flat regardless of gender but the upcoming CBA is the best place for the women to make that case. I can't imagine its something the USSF would hold the line on, just for the reasons @big_pole57 posted.

I think a lot of this "smaller" type of stuff (per diems, travel arrangements, etc.) is less about intentional discrimination and more about it having not been a priority for either side yet. I bet the women's arrangements were equal to the men's arrangements at one point and for whatever reason in negotiations with the men they got upgraded levels and that didn't happen with the women because the negotiations were focused on other things.

Now in a perfect world when the men got upgraded the USSF would have automatically upgraded the women but, well, we don't live in a perfect world.