What NT eligible attacking players in MLS come to mind? I agree with your general point but I think the calls for Sabbi, Amon and the like are much more out of positional need than because they are playing in Europe.
Sabbi was getting promoted for USNT after a couple of goals. Mueller is a more qualified young'en, for one. He's a pretty well-rounded a-mid and plays for a club that has over twice the TransferMarkt value. Lennon was ahead of Sabbi in the pecking order in u-20's, and while he plays rb now, that makes him versatile, and really showed as much or more when playing a-wing for RSL. What makes Sabbi more qualified than even, say, Alex Muyl? Semi-regular starter for a lot better club than Sabbi. I'd rather see tweener aged guys like Rowe, Fafa, Sapong, etc. Shelton was a fairly regular starter for SKC and is on his way to one of the better performing clubs in the 2. BL (although he wouldn't be available). Slim pickings, but still better than resumes than Sabbi. I'm supportive of call-ups of Amon and Gall at this point, at the very least to Jan. camp, if they were available. But with Amon it took a couple appearances and Gall it was well before he transferred to Malmo. For some they pretty much just need to be able to see your breath when they watch you play on the field of a European League that was historically better than MLS (but isn't anymore) to get excited. Really these are jumping off points. Hopefully they improve over time from actually playing regularly unlike few are in MLS, and have more hope of upward mobility if they have the chops.
Bello has talent, excelled in minimal opportunities, and will be playing for the best team in MLS. If he looks like he belongs with Atlanta for the first couple months of the season, I'd call him up at that point. It wouldn't really be rushing it. If can't wait that passed 16/17 and with not having proven anything at a real level he was pretty indifferent about playing for the U.S. With Sampson, it was part of his strategy, I didn't think Wegerle was helpful, yes Mason and Wagner, Regis, Llamosa, Dooley and Stewart were already around. I don't remember all of them, but he was cap-tying galore. It was one of the factors in talent depletion like w/ Klinsmann. Like with Klinsmann there were also chemistry factors. In hindsight Sampson was ultimately justifiable in leaving off Harkes, but obviously they lost anyway in spite of clearing up that problem. The Iran loss was one of the most embarrassing in fed history.
With due respect, I searched through the USMNT forum under Sabbi for this season and there were no substantive calls for Sabbi other than patrick167 effectively saying that we should look at anyone who plays offense and a few others who listed him with a few dozen others as options. there does not appear to be this anti-MLS agenda here that I see but rather spaghetti on the wall that you've read too much into. Does anyone here really advocate for Sabbi because his league/team is better than MLS? Own up if you do.
Well, here are a plethora of posters suggesting he should be called up, starting in August on page 10 of a search of his name. https://www.bigsoccer.com/search/26297193/?page=10&q=sabbi&t=post&o=date I'd quote them to make your life easier and for it to be in plain view to onlookers of this discussion, but I'd rather not be unnecessarily antagonistic to said posters. It would just be to prove my point that, no, it was most certainly not a figment of my imagination.
Lol. https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/emmanuel-sabbi-a-k-a-dapaa-at-hobro-ik.1996062/page-9 He had a good start to his season, and was tied with 2 others for the most goals in the Danish Superliga back in August. There's an article there at the same time suggesting that he should get called up: https://www.starsandstripesfc.com/2018/8/12/17680446/emmanuel-sabbi-usmnt-usa-hobro-ik But sure enough, the clamor died down as soon as his playing time and scoring fell off a cliff. Just as it did for Dom Dwyer when his team stopped scoring goals, just as it did for Mueller when he stopped scoring, just as it did for Jack McInerny (there's an entire thread dedicated to him outside of the MLS Flavors thread) after his 2-month streak for Philly. If Gall doesn't continue his form, he won't be talked about anymore, and the same thing will happen. You'll come back 2-3 months from now and say "I can't believe anyone even thought he was good", despite the fact that every Flavor of the Week gets talked up on either side of the Atlantic. Quit making a mountain out of the natural molehill of an in-form player at a position of weakness getting talked up.
We disagree about Wegs, agree about Iran, other than that I can't make heads or tails out of what you're saying about the Sampson era. Regarding Bello. Not super clear what you're saying about Bello either. But, if Bello was a part time player who looked to be a rising star next year and didn't have NT options, I wouldn't call him in. Him having another option - that is likely to go after him, if he's improved from this year, I call him in, in a heartbeat.
We had a dearth of forwards. You see it with MLS players and others, if they get on a hot streak then people want to see them. People still want to see Zardes. Sabbi was red hot, it is amazing how cold he got. But if we can call in Jonathan Lewis and Corey Baird, you can call in Gall or Sabbi. Or not. Last year was also strange and many FIFA windows the majority of MLS players were not available. Just not that many Americans anywhere playing forward to ignore guys getting the job done. Amon is really the only real prospect in Scandinavia imo though. The SPL is one thing, Celtic and maybe Rangers again some day, are different. Too often, leagues are taken together and clubs disregarded. Celtic has media and fan pressure and expectations unlike anything you will find in MLS. It plays teams in the UCL and UEL that are beyond anything found in the CCL. But i agree, these days the idea of being under scouts eyeballs is overrated. Video is compiled on players and easy to access. Ledezma was found by a Dutch team playing in the USL.
I was one of the people not really advocating for Sabbi call up towards the end of the summer, but bringing him up as a realistic possibility to call in. Wood is probably our most accomplished forward right now, and he's on 3 goals and 1 assist in 13 games for a crappy Bundesliga team. Novakovich has gotten call-ups, and he has 4 goals and 1 assist in 13 games for a crappy Eredivisie team. Sabbi had 5 goals and 1 assist in 17 games for a crappy Danish Superligaen team. So, I stand by saying that it's not crazy to call up Sabbi, though I wouldn't expect him to be anything more than CONCACAF-adequate for the USMNT. That's just the level of the talent pool at forward right now. We just have to hope Sargent keeps progressing, Weah gets some looks as a #9 at Celtic, Soto progresses, etc., and they make this debate (more) obsolete.
No, I remember at the time I made the initial post in August or whenever, the only American forwards with double-digit goals in MLS were Zardes, Dwyer, and Bunbury. If we're interested in calling in younger guys with some remaining upside, it ain't in that crew (though I still wouldn't mind seeing more of Dwyer with the nats). You could probably make the case that by the end of the MLS season, Baird emerged as a more enticing, younger option than Sabbi, which is probably why he's at January camp right now.
I concur. I don’t think anyone was saying this is our saving grace and that all our forward problems have forever been resolved because we have a striker at Hobro. But at the time, at least, he seemed to be showing well, and a call up to bring him into camp would have been a good thing.
We could have called up Sabbi. I think its more likely that we're about to get our U23 program rolling in advance of Olympic qualifying, and Sabbi could be a key player for that team (particularly if Sargent isn't available). Haji Wright of Schalke, who's gotten some first team playing time recently, will also probably be with that group. The next young American forward following in the footsteps of Sargent is Sebastian Soto at Hannover. He's training with the first team during the winter break. It wouldn't stun me if he makes a debut this year. We have a lot of talent on the way. There's just been this massive gap in the player pool in between Jozy in his prime and the current pool. The biggest disappointment by far is that Juan Agudelo didn't develop. Cuz there was a time when we all thought he'd be a USMNT striker. He's 26 and "in his prime." It just didn't happen. Gold Cup #9s will probably be Wood, Novakovich and Sargent. Perhaps if Zardes or Morris or an MLSer of that ilk really is doing well...………...they can replace Novakovich. I'm not as convinced by Novakovich as others.
I think the Danish league overall develops players better than MLS, but I don't think anyone thinks 5 goals @ Hobro IK is any better than 5 goals at an MLS team.
I'm wondering what the % of domestic starters in the Danish league is. I bet it's higher than MLS - especially in the front half of the field.
Instead of dragging every last European forward into Jan camp because he's in Scandinavia (?), we really need to concentrate on getting Zardes and Ramirez up to speed so we have some depth in the scoring department for GC because we really don't know if Sarge and Pulisic are necessarily going to show. Ebobisse could use some minutes too. Last year was for rummaging around in the pool and Sarachan pretty much did that.
I think it is strange we would call up guys who didn't start in USL. So, I guess that makes guys that don't start in MLS less problematic?!? Why are we calling up players that don't even start in MLS? Then on top of not even starting in MLS, you want us to give the keys to Ramirez for the next 6-12 months? Drop Sargent for him? I'll pass. If Sargent is hurt, then I would take Altidore, Wright, Soto, or any American that actually starts in MLS, over Ramirez. He is 27, it is over. It is really just an indictment of our talent pool that he is even in the camp. Very insulting to Dwyer at the least. He is only a year older and actually starts in MLS.
I don't think that's really fair. Ramirez has been a double-digit goalscorer for several years now. I don't think NASL was much different talent-wise compared to the bottom of MLS, and Ramirez scored 20, 13, and 18 goals there. Then he followed it up with 14 in Minnesota's first season in MLS, and 10 goals this year. In the meantime, we've called up such gems as Chris Pontius, Will Bruin, and CJ Sapong. Ramirez sure isn't any worse than those guys, so what's the harm in a callup? Should he be starting in place of Sargent, Weah, or others? No. But a Camp Cupcake invite is fine, the US could use a good finisher.
The bar you set is much lower than the bar I was responding to. Of course, if Will Bruin is in your player pool, than call in anyone haha. I wouldn't call anyone who is 27 and never played a higher level of competition than MLS. I wouldn't call anyone who doesn't start in MLS ever. I was responding to the idea that Ramirez is not just a warm body for a throwaway camp, but should be starting the GC. I saw today there were only 6, American, non-defenders or GKs under 23 that played more than half the minutes for their MLS teams last season. That is staggering. One of them, is now in Germany. So, I guess if there is literally no bodies for this camp, and if you don't cancel it, you have to call someone just to practice.
When I see somebody suggesting that a call up to Jan camp for Ramirez amounts to giving him the keys for the next 6 mos, I just don't see how a reply would take us anywhere
What NASL were you watching? The best team in NASL, the Cosmos, had trouble beating the B/C team of NYCFC and RBNY. Shit, a few of the Cosmos Stalwart players (Leo Fernandez, Walter Restrepo) couldn't make the 18 of an awful Philadelphia Union Team when they were on the roster.
The majority of USL/NASL rosters are made up of former MLS players, so presumably, they have a modicum of talent. And your example is mostly irrelevant, NYRB and NYCFC are playoff-caliber teams with good rosters. Colorado, San Jose, Chicago, those teams suck. Full-strength Chicago lost to FC Cincinnati on penalties 2 years ago in the USOC. Or, to put it another way, Sacramento Republic, FC Cincinnati, and Louisville City could muster up more than 21 points out of 34 MLS games. That's my "bar", be in the same space as the bottom of MLS, which I think is true of the top USL teams. Not to mention, Minnesota and Orlando City took their rosters from NASL/USL, added a DP (Quintero and Kaka respectively) and some MLS castoffs, and won games in MLS. FC Cincinnati bought some out-of-favor MLS vets, but their team's still going to be filled with USL talent.
Not really. U23 domestic players who have received starts in at least half of their teams league games, in positions other than goalkeeper or defender: * EPL 7 Serie A 6 Spain 11 Germany 13 Sure, those leagues are much better than MLS , but then the elite talent pools in those countries are correspondingly larger. Even in the Argentina first division, where 523 of 665 players are Argentine, the corresponding number for this season is only 22. * = source: whoscored.com