As far as doggy-style, sure man, doggy-style is her favorite position, you're talking about an old rodeo queen (NFR-OKC), bull-dogging and all. She'll strap it on, poke your twinkies and dust your tonsiles, I told you guys that she use to be a tomboy. She'll even tie you up, beat you and call you cheap! I told you guys that Oklahoma City is not like Tulsa. She puts out on the first date. She's like a black widow spider; OKC will turn on you at the dinner table! Tulsa, on the other hand plays hard to get! OKC is getting popular now; however, she needs to wash between her legs (clean up the city). She doesn't douche as often as Tulsa. She getting better though on feminine hygiene (North Canadian River Project).
Re: Re: Re: The Cleveland of the South... ding. Really, OKC, this is the only time I'll ever say this, but more power to you and good luck getting the team. Tulsa is a dead city that's got no chance of pulling itself into improvement of it's buissness and education chances, let alone landing and supporting (financially, not fan support) a major sports franchise. The more I've thought about the less sense it makes to say that Tulsa needs MLS. Tulas needs a functioning school system with more than one decent highschool. Tulsa needs more centrally located buisness and a new city hall. Tulsa needs to put money in other places than a stadium for a soccer team in a league that most likely will be outlasted by the WNBA. 15 years ago, yeah, Tulsa would have been a much better choice than OKC, but now Tulsa has other much more pressing issues of survival to deal with.
Re: Re: The Cleveland of the South... "Originally posted by USRufnex " "You forgot to mention the snares of better schools and a lower crime rate, but go on..." whammy. The schools were an offshoot of getting to build your own "community". And TPD patrolls the majority of the burbs and is called in for all the tough situations as far away as Mounds. Conservatives with a tad bit of money just want to play act like their rich and "exclusive" so they build their dream kit home in the burbs and stop worrying about the city proper untill someone wants to spend money on the aesbestos infested schools, then its "HELL NO! MORE ROADS!". "Maybe Tulsa should send out a conquering army to annex Sand Springs and Sapulpa-- then we could expand westward, ho!... and maybe Chicago could stop expanding west if it could only start a land reclamation project... "hence the growth down south and east" implies 2 sides of downtown, not 1." two things: Chicago's south side is getting alot better due to the school systems up turn. and i think the original poster was trying to say: embrace Greenwood. The trend is to look at the riverside-side of DT and say "what can we do here" instead of looking north at what has allready been done without much help from the city anyway. 'The downtown is currently on it's way up in some ways but there are some huge racial boundaries that are still under the carpet that is Tulsa.' "... and exactly how is this different than most other American cities?" lots. tons. megatons. universal-quark tons. Tulsa is one of the most racially segregated cities in the nation. One study from US News a few years back put it in the top 5 of the most divided cities in the nation. i mean, 61st and peoria withstanding, there is an honest boundry of where race and money falls in tulsa with little to NO pockets of exceptions. thats a big problem. 'Cheaper land down south attracts construction, and people keep falling for it. They build their houses out in Broken Arrow, or Jenks, and then they commute in and sit in traffic everyday, and then complain that the highway sucks.' "Like the late 70s/early 80s when local government is busy extolling the virtues of downtown & ignoring the flood-ridden 2-way streets where people actually live." again two things: 1: the population of Owasso, BA, Jenks and Union were near non-existent in the late 70s and early 80s. 2: the flood of 83/84 changed alot of things. And before you start crying the wrongs of those fringe-tulsans effected by the flooded streets down south, tell the people who live in the Mingo valley flood plain up on 11th and Memorial why they STILL have major flood problems yet millions are being spent to save the homes of people at 91st and Sheridan over them...ticktock 'and they get to live a little farther away from those dangerous northern Tulsans.' "No, just an attempt to get away from Bubba and his girl across the street who got busted for growing pot in the backyard and cooking meth in the kitchen." bah. That stereotype could better fit north west BA or west Jenks than any part of tulsa other than the west side, and really, how many white-flighters are moving to Jenks from Sand Springs? not many. its totally just a case of class-bias and pseudo rich people trying to look more and more wealthy (when, really, they're not). '(Someday a tornado will rip through one of these suburbs and we'll all learn that the people who lived here long ago had good reasons for building the city where they did.)' "You know, I lived in east Tulsa when a tornado hit the city and missed the suburbs... sturdy homes with basements and foundations in the suburbs fare better than death-trap mobile homes in a trailer park at the "traffic circle." You're starting to sound like a certain TV evangelical who predicted hurricanes for Orlando because of something Disneyworld did. " yeah, i'd much rather a tornado rip up those people who have to live sub-jenks standard than to effect the people that probably have insurance on their kit-homes. really, how are housing additions that much different than the Admiral Park T.P.? The point is that the way the city is built, a tornado will NEVER hit the heart of the city and cause much damage. 'Woodland Hills is the most unattractive part of Tulsa to me. It looks like any block in Houston. Just chain store after chain store and crappy chain restaurants with bad traffic. That area will never attract anyone to Tulsa, because there is no city in the region (or country) that doesn't have at least one identical area.' wonderful, perfectly put. "Yet year after year, the area gets busier and busier. You'd think the locals could build a library, put together outdoor artwork by homegrown talent (please, no Chicago "cows"), streetlamps, banners, SSS?, to make it less "generic"-- oh, I forgot, we're only allowed to do that for downtown/Riverside." streetlamps? outdoor artwork? please. those are things for streets that are pedestrian friendly. conversly, 71st just grew by another 2 lanes. You dont make things civically attractive when you dont want people to walk on the streets in the first place. Next time your in the Woodland-Hell-Mall area, count how many people you see not in a car. If you use more than one hand, i'd be amazed. Downtown is the goal of pedestrian-friendly improvement because walkers/nondrivers are still welcomed and not in danger down there. Also, since it's improvement, the Promenade/Southroads shopping area has done just as well as Woodland-Hells. "Homegrown artist"? What, so there work can be chopped to shreads if its not typicall indian art or vandilized by south tulsa SUV brats out for "being cool"? 'Interestingly enough, one of the favorite pastimes here in Tulsa is complaining about how there is nothing downtown, and pointing fingers at the city leaders for not having "vision."... while they move to Jenks, BA, or Owasso.' "2 separate issues... like most small towns and a few big'uns, T-Town's downtown closes the end of the workday at around 6pm, with the exception of a certain all-night "bookstore/theatre". Funny you should mention Jenks, BA, and Owasso. They happen to have the reputation for having the 3 best school systems in the Tulsa area-- methinks this is why they're moving... but then again, Jenks is SW of Tulsa and Owasso is NE and BA is the dreaded SE, so at least we're moving in more than one direction." b.s. the best/youngest bars in Tulsa are all downtown as well as a growing artist community. MidTown Adult Theatre is getting closed, too (one of LaFortunes pet projects). It's dead to the extent that there arent people on every corner, but there are good restaurants/theatre spots and bars down there. "OKC wants to be Dallas when it grows up. Tulsa wants to be Boston when it grows up." Again, why OKC should be held trial for treason. Trying to be texas...how un-oklahoman. Will is turning in his grave.
Re: Re: Re: Re: The Cleveland of the South... well, being the bread winner for the state/territory for 100 some odd years... more anti-tulsa OKC slander. How are Tulsans any less Oklahoman than OKC, who has a healthy case of Texas envy? and please be more substantial than your little "Kansas hoe!" tidbit, a movement supported by about a hundred some odd nuts in East Tulsa, hardly what I would call "proof".
I never thought the Cleveland tag would catch on... Dang, sons, maybe one of us should run for governor. We're about to elect another person from Washington, ER, Tulsa who just wants to draw a check and soap box for the 700 Club. I've never seen such a spirited (not so much in depth) discussion on the state of the state. It sure beats the suits we have in charge who are busy warming up to Dubya in order to get out of town so they can meet bigwigs and cute babes. I hope I get to see you guys at Williams Stadium or Citgo Park or whatever they wind up calling it when OKC gets the team. The city, like other second teir town in the nation, would latch onto anything major league and play it up to the hilt. just keep Gaylord's claws out of it.
Re: Re: The Cleveland of the South... Ask yourself why the schools are better. That's just my point. Instead of using money to actually fix things, Tulsans have just over the years tried to get further from them... then complain about them. I guess I wasn't clear enough. I'm not talking about expansion as much as development. I was implying one direction out of two (N and S). You can't tell me that Tulsa has ever in any way really truly opened it's arms to the north. It isn't different than all cities, but it is magnified. Not every city has had large race riots that were subsequently ignored for decades. I know highly educated adults that grew up in Tulsa that never even knew there ever was a "riot" or a black Wall Street until later in life. Their parents and schools never mentioned it. How many cities had a race riot where it was really the whites that did the rioting? You are missing the aim of my stab. The people moving down south that I'm talking about are those employed downtown that instead of buying $150000-$300000 homes in midtown opt to buy new terribly built larger development homes down south. Uh... Downtown and midtown are about the least Bubba-populated areas. The meth labs are far more common in BA, Jenks, east Tulsa, and a few clusters of apartment complexes on the verge of South Tulsa. It's "the city" that they are fleeing. Not Bubba. They don't want to see black people and they don't like anyplace that doesn't have 4 lane roads. You basically missed the point which is to say that if you go and look topographically at BA, Jenks, and Owasso and the outer parts of Tulsa, you find areas where tornadoes are far more likely to strike. Not expansion. Development and improvement. Fix problems... not just fleeing them. Yes it does get busier. The majority also buy Britney Spears albums and eat at McDonalds. It doesn't mean they are any better off for it in the long run. So you want to add character to Woodland Hills? Good luck getting the anyone out of their cars! To have artwork by homegrown talent the residents of the city would also have to show a real interest in it's artistic community or even history, which they generally don't. People would rather drive to Woodland Hills Mall. Again, ask WHY the schools are better... Downtown businesses will come as soon as people make the choice to live there. Actually, I think it is starting to happen, thanks to some entrepeneurs. Downtown is showing signs of life. (although if Williams sinks any deeper into trouble, that could dry up.) The talk of developing from downtown toward the river more is encouraging, as is the progress seen in Greenwood and Brady. I agree, but I have found Edmond to be about as interesting as Owasso. Don't hold my breath? Ah... so maybe the public doesn't always know best, eh? I'd say OKC wants to be Dallas with a little Houston and San Antonio thrown in so it can say it isn't Texas. Tulsa is split. Part wants to be OKC. Part doesn't care what it is as long as they don't have to pay for it.
What I'd like to see... I would like to see Tulsa pass a sales tax this next time around for a new 20,000-seat convention center. Instead of fighting each other, Oklahoma City and Tulsa could work together. I'd like to see a National Hockey League or National Basketball Association franchise shared by both cities with half the games played in Tulsa and the other half played in OKC. Or, better yet, put a NHL franchise in Oklahoma City and an NBA franchise in Tulsa. Why can't we all just get along!
OKC and Tulsa will never get along. We can share a house but not a bedroom. Besides, I think this competition just makes each city better. Tulsa does something so OKC improves itself to better them and Tulsa betters themselves to outdo OKC (though we're still waiting on that last part to begin ) And besides, it's probably the only thing in Oklahoma that people have somewhat passionate pride about where they live. And city sharing a team would never work. You'll loose fans because they won't think it's really "their" team because they only get half the games and stuff.
Re: Re: Re: The Cleveland of the South... "You forgot to mention the snares of better schools and a lower crime rate, but go on..." whammy. ...big bucks... big bucks... no whammies... The schools were an offshoot of getting to build your own "community". And TPD patrolls the majority of the burbs and is called in for all the tough situations as far away as Mounds. Conservatives with a tad bit of money just want to play act like their rich and "exclusive" so they build their dream kit home in the burbs and stop worrying about the city proper untill someone wants to spend money on the aesbestos infested schools, then its "HELL NO! MORE ROADS!". Kinda like Schaumburg, IL, ya think? two things: Chicago's south side is getting alot better due to the school systems up turn. and i think the original poster was trying to say: embrace Greenwood. The trend is to look at the riverside-side of DT and say "what can we do here" instead of looking north at what has allready been done without much help from the city anyway. South side of Chi-town is more vicious and dangerously racist than anyplace in Tulsa... Boston has Roxbury/Dorchester... Booker T Washington HS is arguably the BEST public school in the city of Tulsa... city is trying to duplicate that feat by replacing McLain with TSST... Chicago's forward thinking Daleys gave us the Robert Taylor homes and Cabrini Green... "... and exactly how is this different than most other American cities?" lots. tons. megatons. universal-quark tons. Tulsa is one of the most racially segregated cities in the nation. One study from US News a few years back put it in the top 5 of the most divided cities in the nation. i mean, 61st and peoria withstanding, there is an honest boundry of where race and money falls in tulsa with little to NO pockets of exceptions. thats a big problem. Please take the Garfield bus instead of the Jeffries Express from the southside of Chi-town-- Chicago is a very ethnic city (Tulsa not nearly as much) yet has the same problems (some much deeper) than Tulsa... 61st and Peoria?-- try 21st and Memorial and elsewhere... TPS has an open transfer policy which in the beginning was a conveniently racist way to avoid bussing in a racially divided city but resulted in a very integrated Tulsa Hale HS when I graduated there in '83. "Like the late 70s/early 80s when local government is busy extolling the virtues of downtown & ignoring the flood-ridden 2-way streets where people actually live." again two things: 1: the population of Owasso, BA, Jenks and Union were near non-existent in the late 70s and early 80s. 2: the flood of 83/84 changed alot of things. And before you start crying the wrongs of those fringe-tulsans effected by the flooded streets down south, tell the people who live in the Mingo valley flood plain up on 11th and Memorial why they STILL have major flood problems yet millions are being spent to save the homes of people at 91st and Sheridan over them...ticktock 1: Good point. Can't recognize Owasso from when I lived there ('77-'82)... those evil suburbanites even funded a PAC at the high school... what WILL the FFA do? 2: Hello? Old Mayor LaFortune lost his office after years of looking out for the interests of Southern Hills/Downtown/Riverside while Mingo Valley flooded almost every year in the 70s-- those big ditches you see around 21st and Mingo are what keep 11th and Memorial from going completely underwater compared to the street flooding that has now become a Tulsa tradition. MY LINE--"No, just an attempt to get away from Bubba and his girl across the street who got busted for growing pot in the backyard and cooking meth in the kitchen." bah. That stereotype could better fit north west BA or west Jenks than any part of tulsa other than the west side, whammy... this was on Admiral east of Sheridan a block south of the ever-present "Guitar House"... saw the police bust... I can't really blame anyone of any ethnicity or race for wanting to move out of that area at the time... civic leaders were too busy sprucing up Southern Hills for the PGA tourney to notice... "bah?" That basically describes the city's response. and really, how many white-flighters are moving to Jenks from Sand Springs? not many. its totally just a case of class-bias and pseudo rich people trying to look more and more wealthy (when, really, they're not). So, did mummsy and dadsy send you to Cascia? Class bias applies more to the class of me-first yuppies trying to recreate a Back Bay Boston brownstone by paying $3000 a month for a luxury-priced "Tribune loft" rehabbed courtesy of local and federal tax subsidies (oh, but I'm sorry, guess these are "pro-growth incentives"--old money has it's uses). JSbach's words--(Someday a tornado will rip through one of these suburbs and we'll all learn that the people who lived here long ago had good reasons for building the city where they did.)' yeah, i'd much rather a tornado rip up those people who have to live sub-jenks standard than to effect the people that probably have insurance on their kit-homes. really, how are housing additions that much different than the Admiral Park T.P.? The point is that the way the city is built, a tornado will NEVER hit the heart of the city and cause much damage. whammy, again... Do you think for one minute that Tulsa city founders at the turn of the century built along the Arkansas River to knowingly avoid tornados? Then why do most of Tulsa's oldest homes have basements/storm cellars? Having been through a tornado or two myself, I wouldn't wish a natural disaster like that on anyone (unlike you and your friend JS who pray for tornados to take out the 'burbs)... easily the most dangerous place to be in the event of a tornado IS A MOBILE HOME... maybe you can convince these people to move to Riverparks rather than B.A., but don't hold your breath... streetlamps? outdoor artwork? please. those are things for streets that are pedestrian friendly. conversly, 71st just grew by another 2 lanes. Would you and other concerned citizens want to argue for sidewalks, perhaps, or an arboreteum?... "God, no, the area's just too 'bourgeoise.'" Congrats on yet another self-fulfilling prophesy from the Southern Hills folks (they hate being called "folks," by the way--FYI) You dont make things civically attractive when you dont want people to walk on the streets in the first place. Next time your in the Woodland-Hell-Mall area, count how many people you see not in a car. If you use more than one hand, i'd be amazed. And how is this different from Schaumburg, IL? Downtown is the goal of pedestrian-friendly improvement because walkers/nondrivers are still welcomed and not in danger down there. Danger?!? I got mugged in pedestrian friendly Andersonville on Chicago's northside... please check the crime records for Tulsa's downtown/Riverparks some time... Also, since it's improvement, the Promenade/Southroads shopping area has done just as well as Woodland-Hells. "Homegrown artist"? What, so there work can be chopped to shreads if its not typicall indian art or vandilized by south tulsa SUV brats out for "being cool"? Funny, 20 years ago Southroads was too "common" for the Utica Square folks (they, too, hate it when I call them "folks"--FYI)... 20 years from now, the same people who hate Woodland Hills will have children who will become yuppified adults clammoring for public funding to restore that very same mall to it's "former glory." b.s. the best/youngest bars in Tulsa are all downtown as well as a growing artist community. MidTown Adult Theatre is getting closed, too (one of LaFortunes pet projects). It's dead to the extent that there arent people on every corner, but there are good restaurants/theatre spots and bars down there. No b.s., just trying to finish a B.M.--thanks for asking though... I didn't see it ("best/youngest bars") this past year, but really wasn't concsiously looking for it... if this is, in fact, true, then kudos to ya'... you've got something better going on than the average tired old government financed urban renewal project... when I moved to Chicago's northside in 1990 (used to live in an artist-only building off the Granville "el"), Bucktown/Wicker Park was dangerous, Andersonville was kinda "seedy," and Rogers Park had good areas but too many "shootings"... after young creative types moved there (and started theatres/bakeries/upscale restaurants), the area started to attract the very same people who had been moving in droves to the suburbs the past decade... good luck, but be careful what you wish for... gentrification could be right around the corner... "OKC wants to be Dallas when it grows up. Tulsa wants to be Boston when it grows up." Again, why OKC should be held trial for treason. Trying to be texas...how un-oklahoman. Will is turning in his grave. Ditto...
Re: The Cleveland of the South... That's not entirely fair. I've seen just as much OKC snobbery on here as Tulsan, and frankly even generalized anti-Oklahoma snobbery. Every city has it's "snobs" and it's biases. This current Tulsan (me), has been far more critical of Tulsa than I have been of OKC. While I don't exactly love everything OKC has done to revitalize, I have given credit for actually having the balls to do something that is in some ways positive. Tulsa has yet to successfully do much of that, and I hope we haven't waited too long financially speaking. LaFortune isn't God. I'm hoping the outgration to the burb slowdown is also happening here in Tulsa. There are signs. There is a ton of new condos being developed around down and mid-town. (although I wonder about the pricing). We're seeing many older once not so nice neighborhoods turning into prime areas. I've heard at least two South Tulsans recently mention looking to move closer in because they hate the hour commute on Riverside. Perhaps the people are starting to realize what has happened? There is also the hispanic and Vietnamese influence that will be growing exponentially and changing the city (OKC too, I imagine) as the next years go by. Tulsa won't be able to ignore these "minorities" much longer. I've always found the OKC/Tulsa thing to be kind of amusing... amusing because most of America thinks it's all just a common dustbowl/oil field anyway. They are wrong in both cases. There's also the general Texas envy thing in both cities... It always amuses me when people who will bash on Texas will then run home to watch the Cowboys game. Then there is the added Arkansas factor. Oklahomans love to make fun of Arkansas as some sort of backwoods, inbred state, not realizing that to most of America, Oklahoma doesn't seem that different. (Although I found this in Indiana (with Kentucky) as well...) Perhaps it's just the make fun of the neighbor syndrome... While I agree in principal on TU and state funds, your factual details are a little misleading. OSU actually does have a Tulsa campus. OU has some facilities here as well. NSU now has a campus in Broken Arrow. Although I lost track of what the original gripe you were refuting was... Too much time spent on this board... I better go out and start doing something positive instead tomorrow.
Re: Re: Re: The Cleveland of the South... --Fixed your first post... Ask yourself why the schools are better. That's just my point. Instead of using money to actually fix things, Chicagoans have just over the years tried to get further from them... then complain about them. --You can't tell me that Boston has ever in any way really truly opened it's arms to Rpxbury/Dorchester. It isn't different than all cities, but it is magnified. Not every city has had large race riots that were subsequently ignored for decades. I know highly educated adults that grew up in Tulsa that never even knew there ever was a "riot" or a black Wall Street until later in life. Their parents and schools never mentioned it. How many cities had a race riot where it was really the whites that did the rioting? --So, you'll be blaming all current residents for a hideous chain of events that happened way back in the '20s... my grandfather was born in Kansas City years after the "massacre"-- Oklahoma history books devoted only one paragraph to it-- this is a difficult issue and needs to be addressed with truth... not convenient soundbites... You are missing the aim of my stab. The people moving down south that I'm talking about are those employed downtown that instead of buying $150000-$300000 homes in midtown opt to buy new terribly built larger development homes down south. --funny, those new homes in south Tulsa and B.A. look really nice to me (my sister is raising 3 kids in one of them-- evil suburb dweller that she is)... sounds like sour grapes on your part... oh, you're probably right... people should be forced to live in older overpriced homes with bad plumbing... Uh... Downtown and midtown are about the least Bubba-populated areas. The meth labs are far more common in BA, Jenks, east Tulsa, and a few clusters of apartment complexes on the verge of South Tulsa. It's "the city" that they are fleeing. Not Bubba. They don't want to see black people and they don't like anyplace that doesn't have 4 lane roads. --my mother who lives in B.A. was involved in a number of sit-ins in the 60s-- stop painting with the same accusatory "broad brush"-- after living in Chicago, Boston, and Indianapolis I can tell you there are just as many rednecks and racists there than Tulsa-- at least in Tulsa more of those people will honestly tell you they're redneck and racist (with the possible exception of the Southern Hills crowd)... You basically missed the point which is to say that if you go and look topographically at BA, Jenks, and Owasso and the outer parts of Tulsa, you find areas where tornadoes are far more likely to strike. -- how long have you lived here? The city of Tulsa was known for awhile as "Tornado Alley"-- not the suburbs, the city itself... "far more likely" is just wishful thinking due to your vindictive streak towards anyone who would dare live in a suburb... Not expansion. Development and improvement. Fix problems... not just fleeing them. --Take a look at TCC's southeast campus sometime... the city's developed in a different direction than you see fit... sorry you don't approve... please beat that "downtown development" horse again... Again, ask WHY the schools are better... --Why oh why oh why can't my sister just move out of Broken Arrow and fix TPS... Downtown businesses will come as soon as people make the choice to live there. I agree, but I have found Edmond to be about as interesting as Owasso... --that evil suburbanite Garth Brooks has homes in both cities-- but he's a country singer, so he must be stupid or something... Don't hold my breath? Ah... so maybe the public doesn't always know best, eh? --No, the public doesn't always know best... but who am I or you or anybody to TELL THEM WHERE TO LIVE AND RAISE THEIR CHILDREN? And who are we to pompously beat them over the heads with our "enlightened" elitist social theories. I like old homes/apts and hate wall to wall carpeting... I'd rather live in an urban area where you can walk to the store, go to the corner cafe, etc... but instead of patronizing the local businesses (or lack thereof), I'll get myself a cup of Starbucks and go to Borders or Barnes & Noble's, dastardly corporate chains no different from McDonald's or Wal-Mart... just trendier and more PC... maybe I just like what I like... --You'll probably get your wish for a revitalized Tulsa when gas reaches $4 per gallon... of course, my rent would probably go up and then I'd be forced to move to the suburbs
Re: Re: Re: Re: The Cleveland of the South... As an until May Greater Bostonian, I must say there's a lot of truth to this. Roxbury (Grove Hall) and parts of Dorchester have taken it upon themselves to revitalize their neighboorhoods. The city helped eventually, but certainly didn't extend the initial olive branch. Boston, as we know, is as provincial as it gets. BTW the roughest section of Boston is Mattapan, a bit south of Roxbury. To direct this back on topic, please don't tell me there are $3K a month lofts going up so people can pretend they're Back Bay cool. No need, especially when a decent one bedroom would go for in OKC, $600 or less? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've seen the bad effects of overyuppification, and don't like to see it elsewhere.
all this is moot now. Williams Co. will announce Chapter XI today, effectivley fucking the entire state's economy (not just Tulsa).
A real quality one bedroom apartment in OKC would only cost at most $400 a month, but most likely between $315-350. The only one beds that I've seen that cost near $600 are the new ones in Deep Deuce. There are also lofts up in Automobile Alley that go for $700 a month I think. In Norman, I pay $472 a month for a two bed, all bills paid with phone and a T1 connection.
CHEAP INDEED! (Or for me, since I've only lived in MA or CO). One advantage Oklahoma: players making the MLS minimum may be able to afford to live there.
Re: Re: Re: Re: The Cleveland of the South... You continue to compare Tulsa's problems with major cities (Boston and Chicago) that are not only not fair comparisons because of size but they are also not at all plagued by the same geographic and commercial problems as Tulsa. Since when has Boston or Chicago had any trouble attracting businesses, conventions and tourism? Since when have Boston or Chicago ever been fairly criticized for having downtown centers with nothing in them? The comparison serves no purpose. I don't blame the current residents for the events... but I do think we, and our predecessors, are all at fault for failing to figure out that this segregation system isn't right and doesn't work. The fear most Tulsans have of downtown is absurd. As cities go, it's pretty clean and pretty safe. They look nice until you realize that their speedy construction and weak materials have given you a large house that will be falling apart in 20 years... but that doesn't matter because it will be someone else's problem by then, right? Disposable house. Cool. Now it becomes clear. My criticism of suburbanization is a criticism of your family's decisions. Well, relax. Your sister isn't evil. I'm sure she is trying to do the best she can for her kids and I wish her all the best... but I can't tell you how many moms like her I run into all the time who want to take advantage of the city resources but resent having to drive down the BA expressway all the way to Tulsa. Those same Moms won't come into downtown to take their kids to see the Ballet because of the city fear, but they are then surprised when there is no top ballet instructor in BA to teach their talented daughter ballet. (In the end, the separated moneys dry up and there won't be one in Tulsa either.) Suburbs are an attempt to live near to city resources without retaining the problems that come with cities. It only works as long as you continue to maintain the city itself. Cut down the tree and the limbs will fall too. I never said anything about there being a shortage of rednecks and racists across this nation. I don't believe Tulsa is particularly open about it's racism. Interestingly enough, you again like to slam on the "Southern Hills crowd" as being covertly racist. Add that to the fact that these are primarily the people that are on every board of every organization in Tulsa, and you'll see why you are now basically agreeing with me as to why Tulsa is the way it is. I already said how long. I'm entering year 8. As long as I've been around "Tornado Alley" is what the meteorologists call a rather large alley in the middle of the USA including most of the state, Kansas, and even parts of Texas. I'll also say that less likely doesn't mean impossible, although the amount of historic buildings would suggest to me that perhaps the tornadoes you are speaking of perhaps didn't impact downtown Tulsa quite as much as say, Moore or Midwest City. (and what happened when that hit Tulsa?... it hit the river, skipped down south a bit and disappeared.) I also don't recommend building houses on cliffs in California, but they have every right to do so. Does that mean I'm hoping they'll fall in from erosion? Been there. Done that. I don't quite get what you see that is so wonderful. They just spent millions on a badly designed concert hall, and they have basically nothing to fill it with. Real smart. It's the Oklahoma way. Divide resources. Everyone has to have their own of everything. In the end, everyone has their own underfunded crap that can't compete with other comparably sized cities. Or like most famous icons, perhaps he needs to live off in the middle of nowhere for other reasons? Last time I checked, this is a soccer bulletin board and we were initially discussing why a pro sports league trying to portray itself as Major League might or might not find Tulsa attractive. That posed question gives me the right to suggest all I want why or not they might or might not. I'm not telling your sister how to live. I'm just pointing out how the collective choices of a couple of decades of ALL Tulsans have failed, IMO, to make this city very attractive as a MAJOR sports market. If you want to drink crappy coffee for $3 a cup, feel free. If you want to buy all your pre-selected books at B&N, then feel free. Someday perhaps you'll notice that your selection of books isn't what it once was and that you get kind of tired of seeing the same store in every city you go to in the world. Nah... we'll have invaded a few more countries and covertly overthrown more terrorist states... We'll be swimming in the stuff. You'll have no trouble getting down to Starbucks.
Nah... Gov. Keating/Largent would probably require MLS to lower their salary scale so that it wouldn't upset the relative salary levels he is so fond of trumpeting. Come teach in Oklahoma schools! We will pay you something just as comparable to our janitorial pay as Texas' teaching salary is to Texas' janitorial pay! But who am I to tell the Governor how to think? Who am I to tell those poor prospective teachers how to live their lives?
Let's hope that if OK gets a team, the governor doesn't try that. While I understand not wanting to see salaries escalate to dot.com boom ludicrousness in the state (helping many businesses along to bust), keeping wages down deliberately would hurt the quality of life and the business climate, wouldn't it? As it relates to an MLS club, I would think the perception of a good quality of life could only help. The cheapness of basic living expenses would sure help the entry level players/staff.
nah Mike, ALL OF IT, not just the comm. sector. Massive selloff becuase no bank will underwrite their huge debt. The Comm. sector is being sold off between Vorizon, AT&T and some foreign company like Vodafon who CLAIM that no jobs will be lost in Tulsa from that. But even the pipeline is being hawked for junk, the energy trading will be lost. all of it. something like $70 billion in debt the company has. And yeah, it screws the ENTIRE state economy; during the companys boom years, the young people they were hiring (some drove in from OKC daily, even) were spending money like non-oklahoman idiots creating tons of tax dollar surplus, not just for tulsa but for everyone. Its going to hit tulsa megahard but the ripple will be felt all the way out in Beaver. and i've got this grumbling feeling about Wirlpool too... where are those 60 some odd companies that were just dying for the state to become right-to-work? lets Kurtz-afy Keating(and his wife), head on a stick style.
correction: just the energy trading portion and comm sector is bankrupt; pipeline and exploration is still making money, but for sure not enough for a SSS