MLS, Europe, etc. (pulled from Camp Cupcake 2016)

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by DHC1, Jan 10, 2016.

  1. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    We were talking about his brother Johan Gomez. :)
    Jonathan Gomez is indeed at Louisville.

    A contract has to go both ways. You can't force a kid to sign. I don't think JOnathan had any intention of signing an FCD or NTSC deal, so they parted ways. Same as LAG and Kobe Hernandez. Same as DCU and Kayo. Same as RSL and Taylor Booth. Once a kid indicates he has no intention of signing, what exactly is the point of an MLS club continuing to invest? I don't know. MLS clubs usually aren't interested in flushing money directly down the toilet.
     
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  2. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I liked the fact that he was making those long passes rather than passing the ball sideways. And even though some didn't reach their intended target the ball ended up back with a Crew player. That's something Sam Allardyce emphasizes. Forcing a defender to head the ball clear or make a hurried interception will tend to give the ball back to the attacking team.

    Anyway Berhalter will spend most of this season on the bench. It will still be a while before we can properly judge him but I think it was a promising start.
     
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  3. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You got me but have forced me to bust you on another thread where you called Jesus Ferreira David Ferreira. I was going to let that slide but ...
     
  4. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I probably do that about 50% of the time, and you're kind enough to only point it out 5% of the time. :) Things may get even more complicated for me as Santiago Ferreira is advancing at the FCD academy.

    By the way, it appears that COVID-19 has finally ended David Ferreira's career in Colombia at the age of 40.
     
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  5. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    As I watch the Championship playoff, would these teams win MLS?

    I think that kind of comparison is very hard to answer definitively, and really doesn't say much about anything. If Fulham win, and Ream is in the EPL, is he then a much better player than at 2:44 AM? What if Fulham go up, Ream continues to starts, and Fulham make the Europa league next year?

    https://chasingacup.com/my-league-is-better-than-your-league/
     
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  6. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I dont know why so many on here dont get this. It had always been a challenge for some MLS players to make it at the international level. If that werent enough, 2017 and 2019 should really drive it home. It is also why I think the hype for players like Aaronson and Pomykal is a little ahead of itself. Aaronson had a difficult time making an impact against the tougher teams in the MiB tournament.

    1297311342236332032 is not a valid tweet id


    If people could accept that this is likely our best starting XI right now and if there changes are needed, the replacement players would also mist likely foreign based, they wouldnt be supporting having a domestic camp in october like they are in one of the Berhalter threads.

    1297313266838863872 is not a valid tweet id
     
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  7. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    intermountain west
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Moving Adams up and taking Reyna out so you play Yueill is lunacy. And predictable sadly
     
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  8. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "This thread has been dormant for almost 3 weeks, lemme bring it back by dropping a nice, fresh, warm turd on MLS from out of nowhere."
     
  9. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's a very generic statement. I think it's a challenge for some EPL players to make it at the international level. That's why they haven't made it at the international level. I think everyone understands that not every player in any league is international standard.


    You watched all the Union matches in MLS is Back?
    Watching CCL I think MLS has a generic problem with the way the teams are structured. We've all heard the expression "you're only as good as your weakest link". The tendency to invest their DP and TAM money in creative players means that the defenses are very weak and the Mexican teams can run rings around them.

    For instance, last season LAFC spent $9.5M on forwards, $6.4M on midfielders and $3.9M on defenders, and they had the highest defender payroll in MLS.

    Moving on:

    Compared to the EFL Championship, well, I think all MLS teams are better than League One standard so they'd sit in the Championship.

    Given the parity in MLS I think all the teams would sit somewhere between the playoff spots and the relegation zone. But Sheffield United have proven what a team can do with a healthy MLS salary budget.

    It'll be interesting to see what happens when 2025 comes around and MLS players are on similar or better salaries than the Championship.

    The current average salary in the Championship is around $456k. The average in MLS by 2025 will be around $500k.
     
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  10. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Not really accurate at at all. Berhalter gave interview recently where he said there would an all MLS camp domestically in October and an all Euro camp in Euriope in Novemeber. MLS fans are defending that decision as the only rational choice. Less than a day ago, a former poster that many used to revere posted on Twitter his starting XI and his concerns that MLS doesn't provide the preparation for international play that other environments do.

    The debate in the other thread didn't seem like the best place for the conversation and part about the environment makes this a more appropriate spot. I am not sure why you can't just accept these things about the league. This one is a big problem for our national, especially because for some reason our coach is ignoring it.

    The arguments about the camp are just dumb. I dont see how anyone would the allocation of time to be half to your starters, top bench options, and top prospects and half to a handful of bench options and guys who will never be good enough. After all the wasted caps on guys who aren't good enough, I see no reason why both camps shouldn't be in Europe with the first one being to get as many Euro guys into camp and the second would be the top 23 which would likely include a few MLS players (Morris, Cannon).
     
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  11. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I'd suspect the number of EPL players to be much lower and surprised any of resemble guys like Lovitz, Trapp, Baird, Rolda, etc.

    There is no way I watched all those crap games. I tuned in a bit until I got bored. I did check out clips of him that looks to be somewhere in between highlights and all touches. He had a couple nice plays but made mistakes, turned the ball over, and was slow of thought. If this were Robinson, people would had a bad game and they had his number. The Portland one was taken down, but here is the one vs Orlando.

    1285411198910042112 is not a valid tweet id


    I have no interest in comparing averages of leagues. This is about MLS not preparing players for CONCAF level. They aren't forced to fight and battle. The speed of play and space/time on the ball is much lower than CONCAF games. I dont think you can say those things about the championship.
     
  12. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I certainly and readily accept that MLS is not a top league in the world. That doesn't mean, however, that there aren't more than 2 players (Morris and Cannon you say) that are capable of making the jump to international play. Just to refer to two players you mention: Pomykal might be ready, but he's been injured so regularly that we can't know because he hasn't gotten the chance. As with other players (here's looking at you, Tim Ream), the ability to remain healthy is valuable and he hasn't up to now had that trait. Aaronson needs more time to refine his game, but his progress is solid. There are a slew of other players, mostly very young, who show lots of promise. We know they show promise because they are getting lots of minutes. Minutes for young players have been hard to come by in the past in MLS, but now, this year particularly, it seems like lots of clubs have come to the realization that they need to focus on the youth.
     
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  13. largegarlic

    largegarlic Member+

    Jul 2, 2007
    I agree that the MLS-only camp in October is stupid, but I'm assuming that this being done (if it is being done) more as a concession to the limitations imposed by the virus situation. Aside from MLS players being allowed into Europe for friendlies, I have no idea how it would work for the coaches and the rest of the staff. Would Euro countries even let them in to coach friendlies? Would they have to quarantine for two weeks on arrival and then quarantine when coming back? It seems like it could be a major hassle to go through in back-to-back months for some friendlies.

    Other than that, I think the argument that MLS is overrated is a bit of a straw man. I think all of us, and Berhalter too, would prefer that we could put together a starting 11 exclusively from guys getting lots of playing time with good Euro teams. But that's not possible right now, so there are difficult decisions to be made about how to compare guys on second-tier Euro teams with MLSers. I don't watch the Championship, the 2nd Bundesliga, the Belgian league, etc., so I don't try to compare those leagues as a whole to MLS. But I do think it's possible to look at the track record of guys called up from those 2nd-tier Euro leagues and compare that with MLS guys. I think that when you do that, it's hard to find any general rule of thumb like Championship guys outperform MLS guys. Some do, some don't. I think Miazga would probably be my pick for starting RCB, but I'm not at all settled on that and think it's totally plausible that an MLS option would be a better choice. And Ream would probably be in my 23, but I think we all know what to expect from him at this point--competent enough play for CONCACAF for the most part, punctuated with 1-2 bad gaffes per game that result in good chances for the opponent. Again, I think it's totally plausible that an MLS guy could give us better than that. It's not crazy to prefer guys like Zimmerman, M. Robinson, McKenzie, etc. over Miazga and Ream.
     
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  14. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    Lol
    Do you think all touch videos or game highlights are enough to evaluate players. Do you know of a player that doesn’t make mistakes or turn the ball over?
     
  15. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ok, that's all I need to know. You're back on my ignore list.
     
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  16. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Will they let them in to coach friendlies? They are assuming so for the November camp. If they have to quarantine, then they should go 14 days earlier. No reason to go back and forth. They should stay for the month in between to monitor players. As for MLS players, they had over a year and very few showed they were up to it. They still have their green try out in January.

    I think we are pretty close to solid first XI. I'm not sure how you can compare the players in europe that are not in the top five leagues to MLS players because they were ignored in 2019. Miles Robinson and McKenzie are promising but why not give Miazga, Richards, CCV, EPB a shot. Zimmerman? Can you imagine what would happen if one of the euro based players had gotten beaten like he was the other night.

    Chelsea----------Bremen------------Lille
    ------------Dortmund-----Schalke---------
    ------------------------Leipzig--------------------
    Fulham--Wolfsburg--Bayern--Ajax
    -----------------------Man City-----------------

    These all look like decent clubs with a few guys being linked to better ones. The only issue with playing time is Weah getting healthy and our clear #1 GK at a top ten club and Richard's breaking through. Seems like a good start. There are at least another 20 players that would be worth looking at. Berhalter set the bar very low in 2019.
     
  17. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I forgot Altidore. Who else has proven they are good enough? There might be more, but why sacrifice time with your starters to look for them when the return so far has been so poor. They will get their shit in frw months.
     
  18. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    No, but they can weed players out. People went crazy for his one play late against Portland, but what did he do the rest of the game. The kid has potential, but doesnt look close to being ready. We will probably get to see in October.
     
  19. Calling BS

    Calling BS Member+

    Orlando City
    United States
    Jan 25, 2020
    The one play was a highlight. We look for special moments because we know that the game can be decided with a special moment or two. We do the same to Gio right now. Once players show us they are capable of those game changing moments, we have to asses how often we can count on those moments and how consistent the rest of their game play is (do they do the basics well enough to not hurt us during other parts of the game when they are not creating highlight moments). The context of the game is important.
     
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  20. tomásbernal

    tomásbernal Member+

    Sep 4, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is no rational starting 11 that is all-Euro right now. Sure, you can fill in spots with hopes, dreams and potential (and a healthy Tim Weah), but the mystique of certain players doesn't mean that they are currently prepared for international soccer any more than a bunch of the young MLS guys might be. If all the stars align (and everyone stays healthy), and a few of the young guys in Europe break through, then maybe in a year I can see an all-Euro best 11.

    That isn't to say don't give them a shot. Absolutely, I'm excited about the all-Euro camp in November because it'll give us a look at several players who we either haven't seen in a long time or have never had a chance due to age (and some others who wouldn't have a shot at a callup, likely, if not for Covid forcing an all-Euro camp).
     
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  21. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    What isnt rational about the XI I put out there?

    Their club environments are what make them more prepared than young MLS players.
     
  22. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    One highlight shows potential. The fact that as the defensive intensity went up, his impact on the game went way down.
     
  23. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I wonder if FCD/MLS would be better off offering the rare star kids who want to go at 18 deals with release clauses like Antonee had in England. Something like contract til age 19 with a flat 3 million release, that's cheap for the buyer and makes MLS whole for the development work. The kid makes a decent wage and plays at the higher level and can walk with any 3 million dollar buyer who he likes.
     
  24. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I agree with this, soccer games often turn on the magic moments, like Pulisic grabbing a loose ball and taking it 75 yards, or Bradley scoring from way out in Mexico. We need guys who "try stuff" ala Clint.
     
  25. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I agree that singling out MLS here is triggering.

    I would agree with Berhalter that any player in any of these non-top leagues needs to dominate that level to be considered for a full strength camp. The only reason to single out MLS as opposed to non-Ajax Eredivisie, Championship, Denmark, Liga MX, et al. is to discuss how the salary structure effects things. If the point is that DPs are guaranteed playing time, have very little pressure to perform, and have a relaxed practice schedule among other coddling, and that makes them soft at International Level, that is something to discuss.

    But comparing Bradley's guaranteed spot, big money, and lack of accountability with someone like Pomykal or a non-DP player is apples and oranges these days. 8 years ago, maybe different. Now, usually good players become TAM and DP players and might lose an edge if they give up the dream of winning the Champions League then. They might not all cry like Chicharito, but there are guys that lose an edge after signing that big contract and realizing they are MLS lifers never going to Barcelona (and every great 12 year old, which they all were, dreamt of being Messi).

    Then there are older guys who are not DPs or TAM players that should not be ever called.

    To sum up, MLS is no different than many of the non-top 5 leagues in many ways. But it is different in how it pays players and coddles the top players. But that almost makes it harder for other players to break in.
     

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