Military service for KNT footballers

Discussion in 'Korea' started by jsk14, Nov 18, 2012.

  1. jsk14

    jsk14 Member+

    Mar 2, 2010
    Club:
    FC Girondins de Bordeaux
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Mod's memo:
    Posts on military service for our Taegguk Warriors have been moved here. Let's keep in mind that mandatory conscription is a harsh reality in a nation like ours where one of the most belligerent rogue states in the world lies less than 50 miles away from Seoul. Please keep the discussion civil. Thanks.
    **********************************************************************************************

    It already has been immense imo one of the best since 09. The only travesty is that we have a player in his prime who should be going to Europe having to go to Sangju :mad:
     
  2. melonbarmonster

    melonbarmonster Member+

    Mar 17, 2005
    Who's going to Sangju???

     
  3. HiTaegukWarrior

    Aug 23, 2012
    Maryland
    Club:
    FC Seoul
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    You are talking about Lee Keun-Ho I presume -- and btw I agree it is a travesty. This mandatory military service needs to be amended to give players flexibility to potentially play in Europe in their prime. FIFA rules are forcing K-League to automatically relegate Army/Sangju to a yet-to-be formed division 2 --so for Lee, it's an even worse situation. And for the KNT, one of their best midfielders will be wasting time in div2 -which may not even get off the ground next season. Seems to me the patriotic thing to do would be immediately amend the rules so players like Lee can be in service of his country -by playing brilliant football on a world stage -and help KNT go deeper into the World Cup in 2014.
     
  4. komina12345

    komina12345 Member+

    Sep 1, 2008
    Club:
    Incheon United
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    You forget that there are other butthurt players in other sports who would object to this. But I agree with this 1000%. The best way to serve our country is to put our country as an athletic powerhouse in other countries. Think like athletic ambassadors like PJS.
     
  5. shinović89

    shinović89 Member+

    May 23, 2010
    Liverfail
    One thing I don't understand is why players aren't granted exemption if they win the Asian Cup. A continental championship with the continents best players aiming for the crown of Asia isn't granted exemption, but the Asian Games Gold medal is? derp
     
  6. jsk14

    jsk14 Member+

    Mar 2, 2010
    Club:
    FC Girondins de Bordeaux
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    its cause of fairness. lots of people can medal at the AG and Olympics. and yes i mean Lee Keun-Ho. Lee Keun-Ho isnt that high profile to bring up this hot topic and make waves on the issue but eventually itll come up a high profile player like SHM might do it
     
  7. Chingoo

    Chingoo Member+

    Feb 10, 2010
    because the asian games isn't exclusive to just football.
     
  8. melonbarmonster

    melonbarmonster Member+

    Mar 17, 2005
    Footballers who can play on world stage should be given exemption bc anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together knows that furthers Korean interests more than having talented players humping it in Sangju. But of course the 병신 쪼다 butthurt hater mentality that created furor over the Tablo fiasco, Mad Cow Disease hysteria, etc. doesn't allow for this. You see this even in thread from kids based in Korea slagging on foreign based players like PCY and hyping domestic players like LDG not to mention actually joining in the antiTablo thing even after all his papers and videos of Stanford registrar's office director was released. When Cha Bumkum was making football history in Europe there were Koreans who were calling for him to play in Korea and 'sports journalists' who were anti CBK.
     
  9. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Perhaps we need a separate thread for this rinse repeat topic, particularly as PCY has exemption and deferment in his back pocket?

    Sadly, none of our griping, particularly in english and on a predominantly US/Can/Aus forum, is going to amount to anything.
     
  10. HiTaegukWarrior

    Aug 23, 2012
    Maryland
    Club:
    FC Seoul
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    You're right, this is the PCY forum, another thread should be started on the military service issue, if it doesn't already exist- no objections from me, but just for a moment I'd like to raise the idea that something actually can be done about this issue. Anyone is welcome to dismiss this as idealistic thinking, but what if there is a global petition from Koreans globally and domestically asking for a re-examination of this policy - asking for flexibility so that Korean players can still do their time in the military, but after age 34 or 35. There could be momentum for the idea, seeing as we are rounding the corner to Brazil 2014, not to mention a collective desire of not wanting to fall behind to Japan. Their JPA #s are way higher than KPA #s and we all damn well know it's not because they are better -but a rigid national policy is in the way. In the free marketplace of ideas, I'm curious to see if there is a critical mass out there who might think this is worthwhile. The potential is that millions of petition voices force a conversation with the establishment and possibly effective the change that we want to see. No guarantees, there never is in life, but could be worth a shot.

    - if there's some disagreement with me, I'm ok with it, but i'm encouraging everyone to be civil. I don't know what I'd do if someone called me a 병신 쪼다, I just may have to hide to cry for a little while however. ;)
     
  11. bozambreaker

    bozambreaker Member

    Sep 18, 2012
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Not trying to be an ass, but when do petitions ever work. Even when I hear the word petition I think of just: fail.
     
  12. HiTaegukWarrior

    Aug 23, 2012
    Maryland
    Club:
    FC Seoul
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    No, you're not being an ass -- petitions do fail ....and sometimes they do work. In the US, a petition by environmental groups long with demonstrations against the Keystone XL pipeline was a factor in which the building of this controversial oil passageway from Canada through environmental sensitive parts of the midwest was halted. Petitions against the South African apartheid gov't (and many years of demonstrations, worldwide condemnation and struggle) all factored in to the release of Nelson Mandela, the end of apartheid, and it's first true democratic vote that led to Mandela's election.

    Realistically though, petitions do have a generally high fail rate for various reasons - one being that people's interest in the petition may not be broad reaching or if there is momentum in the issue, the interest in the petition drive fizzles out over time. However, one that didn't is the petition to legalize gay marriage in my state of Maryland. It eventually followed with a historic win. To quote Martin Luther King Jr, the long arc of history bends towards justice.

    That said, I don't want to give the impression that the idea of Korean players receiving temporary exemption from military service --equates to any important social justice issue out there. Just want to borrow some of the grassroots activist tools to use in getting Korean laws changed.
     
  13. melonbarmonster

    melonbarmonster Member+

    Mar 17, 2005
    Frankly this will never happen. We will always have talented athletes wasting their life and Korea will be worse off for it.

    Hell we jailed and tortured Yi Sunshin even while he was sinking nipponese ships because of the hater politics. It's one of the most the our stupidest habits.
     
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  14. LeVin

    LeVin Member+

    Jun 21, 2012
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Any changes in conscription laws, service time, requirements, etc, will require a major change in the geopolitical atmosphere within Korea, or a major restructuring of the military. The South Korean military, with the possible exception of the Air Force, is nowhere ready to face the issue of manpower shortage that's expected to occur over the next 10~20 years.
     
  15. melonbarmonster

    melonbarmonster Member+

    Mar 17, 2005
    That manpower shortage isn't going to be affected by exempting even a 100 Korean footballers playing their trade in the top leagues in Europe. Politically it'll never fly but logically Korea should have an exemption for individuals for extraordinary ability like the US does for its immigration.

     
  16. HiTaegukWarrior

    Aug 23, 2012
    Maryland
    Club:
    FC Seoul
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    So far I'm hearing 2 things, one is the possibility that Korea may be facing soon a military manpower shortage (however, as Melonbarmonster said, ballpark range of 100 footballers might not put too much of a dent for conscription purposes), and the other is there isn't the political momentum to get such a major change in the law.

    I just don't know b/c I'm not in S Korea, but isn't the KNT fairly popular amongst the broad populace? Could the language, in the effort to change the law, be palitable so that it's worded comfortably to all citizens. something like: everyone does serve, but footballers -in the patriotic duty to serve their country as a football ambassadors be given temporary deferrment so as to recieve training (vis a vis playing in Europe or wherever) and elevate Korea in the upcoming World Cups. I'm speaking to the choir here in the forum, but to Korean legislators: if the Olympic football team can be excused from military service for winning a medal last summer, why not extend that logic further?

    I could be dead wrong, but it just seems like this issue is a pen stroke away from being solved...
     
  17. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Expectations of military service > love for KNT.


    At least in aggregate korean society.
     
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  18. Shinuke

    Shinuke Member+

    Jul 21, 2007
    New York, NY
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Messing with the mandatory military service is the worst thing a Korean could do....remember the Yoo Seung Jun incident? ouch...I just can't see our footballers getting auto exemptions in the future

    And let's be honest..the people who would agree with this plan are mostly those who follow football on regular basis, which definitely isn't the majority of the Koreans. Arguments like "We are still at war with North Korea" or "Granting free exemption will spark major dissatisfaction among Korean men" will always pop up...and there will be no way out of them.
     
  19. Mudang

    Mudang Member+

    Feb 16, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    At the end of the day football is still a game where 22 overpaid dudes kick a rubber ball around for 90 minutes.

    Although I do wish some of the more higher profile athletes could delay their service and pledge to complete it after their playing days are over.
     
    olijolly repped this.
  20. HiTaegukWarrior

    Aug 23, 2012
    Maryland
    Club:
    FC Seoul
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Word. It is just a game as opposed to dealing with N Korea, no arguments about that perspective. So I'm hearing that by in large there is an insistence that all eligible Koreans serve their time in the military to deal with the existential threat up north. I do want to point out however that in the US, reservists as old as 40 and older are on the front lines (partly b/c we didn't institute a draft in our last 2 wars of misadventure). Going with that premise that people can still have a productive role to play even at age 35 and beyond, I'm wondering if the language was worded to the Korean electorate and to legislators that says no one is totally exempted, but there is the need to delay service until age 35 for a select few [again to serve their country in a different way]. Otherwise (speaking to the choir and apologies as this is nothing new) we fall further behind in international football, behind Japan -who don't have such conscription issues w/ their footballers, and we may not be as competitive as we could be in the World Cup.

    In Korea, does the idea that players like Lee Keun-Ho and down the line, Son Heung-Min, having to waste time in Sangju have any resonance? Any news articles in the Korean press that highlight this disconnect in logic? If people can accept Ki Sung-Yeung and company getting exemption by winning a medal on the grounds that it boosts Korea in a positive international media light, might they extend that logic further? ( I'm hoping someone says yes! I'll be back to grumbling and drinking if there is a resolute no. well maybe still drinking moderately regardless...)
     
    Mudang repped this.
  21. Mudang

    Mudang Member+

    Feb 16, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    This is why we need nukes, although I'm sure that wouldn't deter Joseon from periodically acting mental.
     
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  22. HiTaegukWarrior

    Aug 23, 2012
    Maryland
    Club:
    FC Seoul
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Ah ha! With nukes, that could lead to eventual strategic detente. I like the cut of your jib. Mudang, you walk on the wild side of N Korean diplomacy my friend!
     
  23. HiTaegukWarrior

    Aug 23, 2012
    Maryland
    Club:
    FC Seoul
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    I'm glad you were able to post this in: we may disagree at the moment, but in order for those in our camp that would like to see flexibility in the compulsory military service (for the overall benefit of the KNT), we need to be able to have critical conversations with people that hold opinions like yours. I'd like to take a leap of faith that we can hold a constructive conversation on this...

    So forgive me if I sound repetitive, but I'm wondering if you could find this statement agreeable: any kind of change to the law would still have every able bodied South Korean serve - but in the service of their country with respect to honing their skills abroad so they can help the Korean National football team excel (man that sounds wordy)- some players that European or other international clubs that show interest in --be allowed a temporary exemption until age 35 -then they can serve in the military and still be of service militarily.

    For a moment, let's go back to 2002, remember the goodwill and the enormous pride that erupted when S Korea went all the way to the semifinals of the World Cup? The millions in red jumping in unison. The whole world watched as S Korea advanced despite steep odds. They surpassed the other host, Japan. In the big picture, that has to count for something - and players like Park Ji-Sung and Lee Young-Pyo were able to continue to hone their skills abroad, bringing more pride to S Korea - thanks in part to the exemption they received after the '02 World Cup, and helping to advance the KNT in the years before they retired from internt'l competition. Me- I didn't get into football here in the US until I saw the '02 World Cup - and let me tell you -it was transformative -and magic.

    Now with last summer's bronze medal win, exemptions given to Koo Ja-Cheol, Park Chu-Young, Ki Sung-Yeung and other players on that team are free to hone skills in Europe, and complement the KNT conversely. To my knowledge, I don't think Son Heung-Min has that same exemption. He and other S Korean footballers (like Lee Keun Ho next year) are going to be stuck for close to 2 years on the army team, mired perpetually in the K League's 2nd division- and not even on the front lines. This doesn't seem logical. If the laws were tweaked (I don't believe we're talking about a major change of the law), Son could serve his country on a world stage in Hamburg, and then for the KNT during the Brazil '14 World Cup (conceivably for the '18 World Cup), then finally serve SKorea in uniform when his prime football days are over. I don't want to speak for Son, but I would dare imagine he would find that to be a better alternative than 2 years in the K League 2nd div.

    Goodness, sorry for the long post. Might I add, I suppose baseball players going abroad could be part of this law tweaking, just to be fair -and have more allies on this issue.
     
  24. LeVin

    LeVin Member+

    Jun 21, 2012
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    How would you define 'playing abroad' to stop players from going to China or Middle East to avoid military service into their retirement, then get married, have kids and become sole supporter of family and dodge service altogether?

    Our top-tier KNT materials won't be doing that, but what's to stop others? Would you confine 'abroad' to just Europe for football and US for baseball? So playing football in Romania would count, but playing, say golf, all over the world wouldn't? Would you rather determine, then, on case-by-case basis upon request? What would qualify one, but don't qualify others? How do you make a law like this that would seem fair to majority of the people involved without hurting the security of the nation?

    Plenty of things to consider, and never that easy. Not something lawmakers are interested in taking on.

    Realistically speaking, just push up enlistment age to the 30s by special request only, and get rid of the 공익 thing. Can't become an infantryman because of a bad back? Welcome to communications. Got a bum knee? I'm sure there is a unit in need of a supply clerk.
     
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  25. HiTaegukWarrior

    Aug 23, 2012
    Maryland
    Club:
    FC Seoul
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Just got back to the forum after a few days absence, yeah - you make some excellent points. I totally forgot about golf -ha!
    Ok, just for the sake of time (it's 2 am here -yikes!) I want to focus on your last paragraph: what you're saying is, rather than a wholesale change in law (possibly too messy for legislators to deal with right now), realistically there's a better chance that by special request people could or should get deferment - am I relaying that correctly?

    As far as I'm concerned, man if we can get some kind of positive movement on the issue, it should be explored. And yeah, thinking flexibly -let's look at a scenario whereby a KNT player is in Europe until 31, gets married and comes back to Korea to serve - but in a role like Sangju's assistant coach or something like what you said, supply clerk or communications officer. We're not talking about even a thousand people here, probably we're looking at some figure less than 50, as far as football is concerned. As a frame of reference, I think theres roughly 25 Japanese players plying the trade in Europe this season. I don't really follow baseball, so I don't know how many baseball players go to the US. Golf? You might as well be talking Greek to me. I'm going to totally guess that those numbers still are less than 25 that play internationally in each of those respective sports. And I'm pretty confident that we have no Koreans going to Canada/US/Europe to play pro hockey, but just my luck someone here in the forum will prove me wrong...
     

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