Messi v Ronaldo; at 23.

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Charlie512, Jan 16, 2011.

  1. Charlie512

    Charlie512 Member

    Oct 17, 2010
    Texas
    Club:
    Pachuca CF
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Who was better Lionel Messi or Luis Ronaldo de Lima at 23. IMO, Ronaldo was a better dribbler and more of a weapon. Messi is also an excellent dribbler and has outstanding playmaking abilities. Both were the best ever at that age. So who do you think is better the Little Magician or El Phenomeno.
     
  2. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    I would take Emile Heskey over a 23 year old Ronaldo.


    Ronaldo's knee injury that forced him to miss nearly 3 seasons occured 1 month after his 23rd bday.
     
  3. Mr_Renoog

    Mr_Renoog Member

    Aug 12, 2010
    London, UK
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Ronaldo managed 2 months of football when he was 23 so I'd still take him over Heskey :p
     
  4. Mr_Renoog

    Mr_Renoog Member

    Aug 12, 2010
    London, UK
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Seriously though, I'd say Messi.

    I believe that Messi has become the complete attacker, capable of scoring 50+ a season, making the play better than most traditional no. 10s, providing killer passes, can dribbe better than anyone in the modern game, fantastic in tight spaces, great composure, big game performances etc.

    I think in terms of his play, Ronaldo only had the advantage in speed, acceleration, power (basically physical attributes) and finishing. But one of the big arguments in Ronaldo's favour is his performance at international level, Messi to date doesn't compare at all. And we have to remember that Ronaldo achieved his peak at a younger age than Messi, if he hadn't got those knee injuries then he could have become an even better player than he was in his 47-goal season at Barcelona.
     
  5. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Ronaldo had a better 1998 WC(compared to Messi's WC2010) and a great 1997 Copa too(compared to Messi's Copa2007), winning best player in both tournaments. Can't say Messi can compete with those since big game performances don't come any bigger than those in the world cup or in major international competitions with one's country.

    One can also say Ronaldo scores much higher on adaptability since he was the top player in three different leagues(top scorer in two of those three only slightly missing out on the third) playing with three different teams prior to turning 23.

    Messi should overtake everyone at his current rate though so long as he steps it up for Argentina.
     
  6. Dagoods

    Dagoods Member

    Aug 11, 2002
    USA
    R9 was a two time FIFA Player of the Year at age 21.
    Messi is great but O Fenomeno was simply something else. La Pulga is the most dominant offensive force in the world since prime/injury Ronaldo though.
     
  7. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Messi (4 x La Liga, 2 x CL) actualy won something of value on club level compared to Ronaldo (0 x League Titles, 2 x UEFA/CWC) up to the age of 23.

    Ronaldo's 2 Copa titles trump Messi's sucess for the NT though.
     
  8. Charlie512

    Charlie512 Member

    Oct 17, 2010
    Texas
    Club:
    Pachuca CF
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Yes but those are team titles. You can't compare them because
    Barcelona 2009-10 <<<< Barcelona 1996-97, each without their respective player. And for the 1st Champion League, Messi wasn't in the 2006 CL Final lineup.
     
  9. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Agree with you ( team trophies are required but NOT necessary to show a player real ability) - I thin k you put the sign reversed >>>

    Barca2008-2011 were among the "best ever" club team aseembled and succeeded. Messi shone bright and also got pushed by the team - look even Pedro could shine very well ... so!

    In the otehr hand, Barca 96-97 were the first "build up" team to be able to compete with Real, Valencia (at times) and Ronaldo only played 1 season. Now if he would stay another season or two he would surely win at least the liga.

    But again, its not fair to bring team trophies to compare, for ecxample Etoo winning 2 CL, and 2 different leagues and that did NOT make him a better player than Ronaldo or Baggio (who never won a CL)

    ============================================

    Individual awards: Ronaldo won all what Messi did (best player of liga, UEFA MVP, UEFA goldenboot, Ballon Dor, WPOY...even at younger age (before 22) while Messi still trailed on Ronaldo of "MVP intercontinent cup, Copa MVP, copa topscorer, Worldcup Goldenball and WC Goldenboot " - Ironically, those are the "most prestigeous" individual awards that a player can dream to have in his life time!
     
  10. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Irrelevant.


    Barcelona finished 2nd in 96/97 to RM, after Ronaldo left and FCB brought in Rivaldo + Sonny Anderson they won La Liga 9 points ahead of the 2nd place in 97/98.
     
  11. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    So? what is your point? Does it make Rivaldo or Sonny were better trhan Ronaldo?
     
  12. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    My point is that the 96/97 FC Barcelona core surrounding Ronaldo was good enough to win La Liga, but failed.
     
  13. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    The drawback of this: One can say that Ronaldo is a worse choice to build your team around as he is more of a mercenary and likely to abbandon your team for various reasons.

    Interesting fact is that PSV won the Dutch Championship after Ronaldo left.
    Were his high goal totals just a product of sacrificing team sucess in favour of padding his stats?
     
    greatstriker11 repped this.
  14. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Who knows man. Often, there are factors other than the best player's efforts which can turn the tide against his team, especially in a long season.

    Also, one player leaving and his team doing better does not mean he was bad for his team, it could mean a lot of other things as well like the money obtained from his sale was used wisely, that the main title rivals had a bad season or started declining, etc.

    Anyway, Messi will always have his detractors unless he comes up big for Argentina in one of the WCs coming up. Ofcourse as soon as he does, he would be put up there with the best.
     
  15. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Would cut the bolded part.
    No matter what an athlete does he'll always have haters belittling his sucess - even Pele and Maradona have them.
     
  16. Charlie512

    Charlie512 Member

    Oct 17, 2010
    Texas
    Club:
    Pachuca CF
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    You're right sorry for the mix up. :eek:

    You bring up good points James, just because you win more trophies doesn't make you a better player. Like Pele isn't necessarily better than Maradona b/c he won 2 more WC than Maradona. What matter is how you perform.
    Ronaldo was spectacular that season with barcelona, it's widely considered the best individual club season ever. He also performed and won on NT.
    Messi hasn't done neither. He had a horrible WC Qualifying campaign and a decent WC, nothing special though.

    Schwuppe you can't say that Ronaldo was bad for a team. He won the 97 Copa America, and led Brazil to 98 final. Brazil were expected to go out quickly, in fact they overperformed greatly. That shows Ronaldo's quality and the fact that he made a team better. (or at least not worse, like you say)
     
  17. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    It is relevant. 96/97 Barca had 90 points to RMs 92. In 97/98 Barca won the league with only 74 while RM had a total of 63.

    So Barca were great in 96/97 with Ronaldo, but RM had a fantastic season.

    Another point is that the 96/97 Barca scored a whole lot more goals and conceded less than the 97/98 team.
     
  18. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I don't think Messi has done enough, internationally, to justify his being included in the special list that does not merit such scrutiny.

    At the time that this thread is attempting to compare Messi to Ronaldo, Ronaldo was doing it for both his clubs and his country, atleast one can't say that there was a clear demarkation between his performances for the two. IMO, same cannot be said of Messi over the past year.

    Anyway, being an RM fan I don't think its wise of me to keep going on with this debate at the moment. So ciao. :)
     
  19. Charlie512

    Charlie512 Member

    Oct 17, 2010
    Texas
    Club:
    Pachuca CF
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Good point.
     
  20. Dagoods

    Dagoods Member

    Aug 11, 2002
    USA
    1997
    O fenomeno scored 47 goals in 49 games.
    15 goals in 20 games for Brazil!

    Won three titles in his first season with Barcelona: copa del Rey, spanish super cup, and cup winners cup.

    He also won the copa America (MVP of the tournament) and FIFA confederations cup!

    2010
    La Pulga scored 47 goals in 53 games and won la liga.
    And scored 2 goals in 10 games for Argentina. Messi was unable to score a goal in the 2010 WC and Didn't even make it to the wc all-star team.

    /close thread
     
  21. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Okay makes sense.
    Running up the score: Scoring more goals does not necessary mean that the offense is more effective as a lot of them might occure in blowouts against terrible teams.



    For me it's more important to point out the possible weaknesses of alltime players rather than usual blind praise delivered here.
     
  22. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I am not making blind praise. You are the one who used the fact that Barca finished 2nd with Ronaldo and 1st the next year with Rivaldo to make a point. I am just saying things are not as simple as you stated. And I didn't only say they scored more goals. Noticed how many more points the scored in the previous season.
     
  23. Cool Rob

    Cool Rob Member

    Sep 26, 2002
    Chicago USA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Then you have to consider by this age Ronaldo had already trophies and scoring titles with three professional teams in different countries as well as multiple titles on the National level, both international and continental. I don't think its close yet.

    But what makes Messi so fascinating is that he 1) seems to be past the injury-marred seasons, 2) isn't interested in every model or cocktail that passes by, and 3)seems to want to spend the rest of his career with one team, eliminating distractions.
    His longevity and continuity could be mind-blowing.
     
  24. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    OK your two bold statements said the same thing, and I'll try to make mine in reswponse:

    FIRSTLY< All I can agree with you is the saying "interesting fact" PERIOD. However I can bring up more "interesting fact" to prove otherwise from the question: Ronaldo being a good player but worse for a team?

    1- NaTional team:
    - Brazil2002 was a strugglin team and nearly failed to qualifdy for the WC very first time: with Ronaldo back, the same team became WC champions.
    - With Ronaldo (2002-06) Brazil left a record of 11 winning streak games in WC history coincided with his world record 15goals.
    - Ronaldo possesed a very high percentage of win/lost game (played 97 lost 9) while Pele (best era) played 92 lost 11, and Rivaldo (same era) played 74 lost 12 as reference (note that Rivaldo percentage dropped coincident with Ronaldo's abscence in injuries)

    2- Club team:
    - Ronaldo was key to win Inter the UEFA cup (MVP) and was so closed to win the serieA (last game vs Juve with a penalty dismissed)- no coincidence he was named the best player in SeieA that same year
    - Ronaldo was every reason for Real to win liga in 2003. His "injuries" was every reason for Real lost in UCL03 semi vs Juve
    - Ronaldo was key to help Milan back in top4 in 2007 (after 12points deduct from cheating) Note that Kaka was so-so in serieA that season, but to concentrate his form in UCL to win his ballon dor. At the end, Ronaldo won the best player in SerieA of decade: 96-07 passing Zidane, Kaka Sheva Totti and Buffon
    - Ronaldo was key (MVP) to win Paulista for Corinthians with some great games there.

    3-Team sucess in his peak form:
    Ronaldo won cup winercup, supercup, Uafa cup for club team and won 1xcopa +1confed and led NT to to WC final within 3,4years span of his peak. I challenge you to name more than a few greats who could achieve same or more. Notably ronaldo was the best performer in most those ocasions!
    =====================================================

    SECONDLY: we should be more reasonable to judge or to "interprete" well the FACT:
    - those cases happened within 1 season that Ronaldo was there (be PSV and Barca).ONLY IF, a team build up around him for like 3,4 seasons w.o success, and win it after that would be a case to present. A player played for a club 1 season did NOT tell the whole story - if success may be onetime wonder, and if fail then may be the team was not good enough or he could not adapt it?

    combine the 2 cases above, your point was far off reality and more like a speculating one.
     
  25. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    A few exaggerations there James.

    1. Inter played Juventus in the 31st week of Serie A with three more weeks yet to follow. They finished 5 points behind Juve, so considering the game that you are talking about as being a draw for Inter(with penalty being awarded to Ronaldo), it would still mean that Inter would have finished two points behind Juventus. And not only that, Juventus only won 5 out of a possible total of 9 points in the 3 weeks after their match with Inter, but since Inter managed only 4 points out of the same possible total of 9, they were not able to catch up to Juventus.

    2. Real lost in UCL03 not mainly due to Ronaldo's injury but due to Makelele's absence and because Figo's penalty was saved by Buffon, both in the second leg at Turin.
     
    greatstriker11 repped this.

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