MDs vs PHDs?

Well there's no question that becoming an MD is extremely difficult and a lot of hard work. How difficult is it to get a PhD? Depends on the field of study.

Funny story. My father is a medical doctor. When I was a kid, my mom earned her PhD. So people would call, and they'd ask for Dr. Cohen. And my mom would always ask, "Which one?" They never meant her.

 

Med school might be harder to get into, which is your point. Grad school might be harder to get out of.

Med school typically has a very rigid curriculum - you know when you ought to graduate. The research and original contribution requirements of a dissertation screw up the timetable.

If you graduate last in your class in med school, you are still in good shape to get a job using your education. Do that with a PhD and you might never get to teach and say goodbye to research.

 

You must have a very different system over there if it's possible to graduate last with a PhD, you either get it or you don't. There really a curicculum Also in terms of title a medical doctor tends to have an honourary title, rather than that earned from the PhD.

As for which is more respected, it's got to be the medical variety hands down. Everyone in society has used, and generally appreciated, their services at some point in life. The idea of a doctorate is not so universally familiar, although some combinations of universities/subjects are more highly regarded.

A medical course is pretty competitive to get onto here, but certainly not as difficult as gaining funding for some fields of work to do a PhD. Sciences are generally well funded, so a decent degree is required, but to do some of the arts subjects you'll need a first, a masters and then a bit of luck to secure something. And whilst it is hard work, with effort almost everyone who gets accepted should be the sort of person who will pass it.

A real doctor myself (i.e. have a PhD), never had much intention of staying on in academia long term, now teaching my subject in a school.

 

Oh. My. GAWD!!

I was just about to post a thread on this.

A friend of mine -- a PhD candidate -- just broke up w/ her fiance, who is in his last year of med school and is about to embark upon his residency.

The reason?

The guy truly doesn't respect what she does, calling himself a "real doctor" and expecting her to move about where he wants to end up, despite the fact that it's extremely difficult to get a professorship and you're seriously limited by the job market.

This attitude that a physician is more of a "real doctor" is so heinously ignorant. It's just stupid. Sorry.

And it's pathetic that supposedly "educated" ppl are the worst perpetrators in this ignorance.

"Doctor" according to Oxford English Dictionary

That's the first definition, reflecting the etymology of the word: teacher.

Just b/c physicians have appropriated the term doesn't mean make their linguistic coup d'etat justified.

It only exposes their lack of intellectual rigor when it comes to things outside their area of expertise. They should back off when it comes to an area in which they are ignorant, like a real doctor/academic would do.

 

What I meant was that if you have your MD, it doesn't matter if you were at the top of your class or the bottom, you can get a job in a hospital. If you get your PhD, you better be at the top if you want to be a professor. There are many more medical doctor jobs than professorships.

And it doesn't matter why you went in to get your PhD, there is a lot of pressure and expectation that you will get a professorship. You are seen as a failure if you don't.

LOL, you probably aren't a failure, consider that the ones pushing that on you are themselves academics.

And yes, I've been down the PhD route, been a professor, and now I've got a healthy outlook on the whole thing...

 

Me too, but when I found it I was struck by how the face filled the image and how people can modify what I consider beautiful. Was she going to do it anyway and the photographer captured it? Or did she do it at the request of the photographer? Either way, a provocative image.

 

doctor
c.1303, "Church father," from O.Fr. doctour, from M.L. doctor "religious teacher, adviser, scholar," from L. doctor "teacher," from doct- stem of docere "to show, teach," originally "make to appear right," causative of decere "be seemly, fitting" (see decent). Familiar form doc first recorded c.1850. Meaning of "holder of highest degree in university" is first found c.1375; that of "medical professional" dates from 1377, though this was not common till late 16c. Verb sense of "alter, disguise, falsify" is first recorded 1774.

Ergo, docile is one easily taught; decent: readily receptive to instruction.

 

Like most questions involving education: it depends.

M.D.s are well-respected within general population. IMO, Ph.Ds are slightly more respected within the academic community, because the Ph.D. is the gold standard in academia.

Other thoughts:

Getting an M.D. is a grind, but it has a fixed starting and ending point (not counting internships but you're already an M.D. by then).

Ph.Ds have a fixed starting point but the end point is when you've completed your course work, passed orals, made an original contribution to your field AND your committee agrees that you have made an original contribution to the field. This could take three years post-M.A., four, five, six, etc. In some instances, you never get there.

One thing that complicates the M.D./Ph.D. respect debate is that there are lots of Ph.D. degree mills, but few, if any M.D. degree mills. So at the end of the day, an M.D. from even a less-selective medical school is still an M.D. With Ph.Ds (not to mention the ever-increasing varieties of Ed.Ds), you don't know what "Dr." means until you know where the person graduated.

[As an aside, I have a former colleague who got his "Ph.D." start to finish in two years from an online "university." Of course, he plasters Dr. on everything he says and does.]

Finally, if you want the best of both worlds, go the M.D./Ph.D. route. I have a friend in a joint program. He's in his seventh year post-B.A. and counting...

 

I certainly don't consider myself one. Actually I've had more luck of late than those I know who stayed on.

 

Many medical schools offer combined MD/Ph.D. programs in which a student goes through the regular MD program and also do biomedical research in a lab. IIRC, the majority of MD/Ph.D. graduates 20 years ago ended up spending most of their career on the research (Ph.D.) side. I was told last month that the trend has shifted the other way in recent years due to the big discrepancy in job availability and pay for these two tracks. Interpret this info in whatever way you want.

 

Hard-core, legit scientists look down on MDs, big time. They know a little bit of a lot of things and their science is elementary. It's competitive as hell to get in, sure, and specialists are decent to strong in their field, but in general the science is pretty apalling...

Or so I'm told.

 

To be fair, hard-core, legit scientists (I'm one of them) only look down on MDs who think they are better. We do envy their pay scale though. It is true that most MDs only have fairly shallow knowledge of science. However, they really do not have to know a lot of that. What most of them need to know are symptoms and treatments. There are a lot of "when you see A, B, C, but not D, E and F, you prescribe X, Y, Z".

 

As a "hard core, legit" academic physician, I dont' look down on PhD's at all. I have a tremendous respect for the career path they chose.

One of my roles in the relationships with the PhD's I interact with is try to influence them to do "translational" research. In other words, instead of trying to figure out somthing like how a fruit fly's wings work, try to actually figure out how to cure a frickin' human disease.

 

Can you comment on my earlier remark that the recent trend for MD/Ph.D. graduates is to spend most of their career on the MD side of thing? I heard it from one source, but would like to hear a second opinion (no pun intended).

 

True.

Right now, its very hard to get funding to do research. Its alot easier to make a living seeing patients. Many of the MD/PhD's I meet have had their fill of laboratory research and have no interest in trying to combine a career in a patient care and research.

 

You can find plenty of PhDs in industry. Some put "Dr." in front, some put "PhD" at the end, and the rest you only find out when they find each other and start bickering over minutia.

I once got into it with a co-worker in another department. I figured my manager would ream me over it. He didn't and his explanation was that it was to be expected, both the co-worker and myself had PhDs.

 

OK, So I figured I would ask the learned group here for some feedback on a semi-ludicrous idea that's been plonking around my head for about a year now. I am currently a 27 year old high school English teacher (second career. I spent 3 years as a sportswriter). Last May, I went to visit a cousin who is married to a medical doctor, and I was very intrigued by his job. I had all of these preconceived ideas about crazy doctor schedules and what not, but this guy's schedule was beyond sweet. He works M-F 12 to 12 every other week (one week on, next week off. They travel all the time).

The trip sparked some old ideas of mine. I took my last required science credit the semester before student teaching (Bio w/lab), and I was absolutely fascinated by it. I even went up to the professor at the end of the semester and told her that I wish I had more time to dabble in other science courses.

Basically, the trip to visit my cousin, that Bio class and a long-standing interest in medicine, got me looking around. The college I graduated from has a post-Bac pre-med program (you get all the science classes you would need from a Pre-Med undergrad program in a year and 2 summers). I know that I am going to do graduate school in the next 2-3 years anyway, and I've been toying with the idea of going for this option and doing med school instead of graduate work in Lit.

Here's what I know-
-It will be more difficult to get into med school at my age.

Here's what I want to know-
-Is my cousin-in-law's schedule abnormal? It seems to clash with the tv stereotype of 24-7 doctors (and he is an ER doc). I still love reading and writing, and I don't want to lose that by having no time to do those things.

-How much of the actual science is utilized in Med school/on the job? My math skills have never been superb, and this worries me, since I remember chemistry being math in disguise. I understand (and indeed I'm excited about) the idea to get a grounding in the physical and biological sciences before moving on, but what are the key skills after gaining admittance to med school? Is it more about the science knowledge or the experience and recognition of symptoms? The reason I ask is that I wouldn't want to be an average doctor. When I do something, I want to make sure I can do a damn good job at it.

-How is med school generally financed? I have a sizeable chunk of debt already from undergrad, and I worry about being able to get more aid.

-Any other pearls of wisdom you folks can offer.

To wrap this insanely long post, let me just add that it isn't the money that has me interested in this idea again. The interest has always been there. I've always liked helping other people, and I just thought that I could possibly help more in the medical field (for people who want the help more than teenaged students).

 

Obviously, MD's get more respect from people. Let's face it : in humanities and social sciences, many Phd's are jokes. And I'm not even talking about education, where all Phd's are jokes.

To get some respect with a Phd, you need to be Prof. at some prestigious institution, and very few actually achieve this. While, as someone already said, the MD itself is enough.

Of course, I refuse to call myself a "doctor". I'm too afraid to see one of my neighbours come to me one day, screaming frantically : "HELP ! My wife is giving birth ! Doctor, please do something !"

Indeed, my answer would be : "call a real doctor".

 

And you don't always get respect as a Professor. Been there, done that, academia is also a business and while students wouldn't agree, as a professor you have to give them customer service. I.e., their needs can come before your gratification.

I don't need respect from others for my PhD. You need to go into it expecting people to not understand the demands it puts on you. You need to understand that it is all about you and achieving a goal. I normally compare it to a backpacking trip to Europe - it may not look good on your resume, but the self-discovery is priceless.