Vogts As a dear, dear friend said to me, while discussing the Faroe Islands match, "Never trust a German."
i can't believe this sub-tabloid rubbish has started on what is normally a pretty sensible board. yes, mick has tactical shortcomings, but the fact is he has been making this team overperform for some time. he's working with a less talented bunch than his predecessor, and doing damn well. sacking mccarthy because of one minor calamity after a run of success, and in the middle of a qualifying tournament, is not a good idea, unless martin o'neill has been secretly assuming command over the last two years. getting someone roy keane respects would be tough, since i don't think he'd cut it as player-manager. in fact, sod roy keane.
I wouldn't say they are ' over performing ' - quite the opposite in fact. Remember, - we have one of the best keepers in the world.(Given) - two of the best full backs around.(Carr and Finnan) - a number of moderate centre halves. (Breen, Cunningham, Doherty) - our weakest position. - we HAD one of the best midfielders to ever play the game - but, thanks to Mick, now we don't. - we have a clutch of the most exciting young players that we have ever produced ( Duff, Keane, Reid, Butler, Healy, O'Shea), all of which have the potential to be world class. Duff is already there. - we have several excellent central midfielders that are as good as anybody in their positions (Kinsella, Holland) Yet we still settle for losing on penalties to a ten man Spain side and persisting with wasters like Kevin Kilbane and playing our best players out of position. We don't know how good we can be because all we have is Mick and his fumbling management. If Mick resigns and we suddenly become a crap team then I will eat my words but I sincerely think that we have to rid ourselves of him and get someone competent in to ensure that we have the best chance of qualifying for Euro 2004. I think Roy Keane is an arse but he HAS to play for Ireland because he is THAT good. We are all losing out and the sooner he is back the better. I don't think there is any question that Roy would have to respect this other coach, that is not an issue - he just won't play for McCarthy, there is nothing to suggest there would a problem with anybody else...
OK, but who?! For the life of me, I can't think of anyone who would fit the bill. If we get rid of Mick now, it will clearly be seen as a move to get Keane back into the fold. Hence, any manager taking over would have to meet with Keane's approval, or else we're back to square one. Who is the world class manager (let's face it, he'll have to be world class to win Keane's respect) who would be willing to take on the Ireland job? I'm baffled.
I understand where you're coming from in that an immediate termination of McCarthy's contract would suggest that it would be a move to get Keane back - which is not really ideal... But McCarthy had made his bed and he must lie in it. There are plenty of quality managers out there who I wouldn't mind taking over... George Graham is at the top of the profession and I would not be unhappy to seeing Brian Kerr at the helm... Its not something I have thought a lot about but I am convinced that whoever was brought in, they could not fail to be worse than McCarthy... I;m in a rush - will post more later... i can smell me dinner mmmmm
Firstly anyone who says Morrison isn't upto it is talking out of their arse, he's the best out an out goal scorer we've had since Aldo, he did what all good goal scorers did, scored, that's three in one start if you're keeping count. He also was strong and held up the ball well and is the goal scoring foil needed for the less natural Keane. Secondly, George Graham is a good suggestion and one I didn't think of but it makes sense, out of work, can get the best out of players, respected, doesn't take crap from his players and doesn't blindly stick by his favourites. Also, winning the top division in England is good. A team of Given, Finnan, Carr, O'Shea, Doherty, Duff, Reid, Kinsella, Healy, Morrison, Keane is as good as any around in Europe at the moment and with young stars like Butler, Andy O'Brien, Barrett, Sadlier et all coming through it has such great potential, I've said it before, we're entering a golden era now, with the players coming through, we need a good manager to make full use of it.
Remind me again by how much the trophy cabinet at Leeds and Spurs had to be expanded when Graham was in charge? Who is Graham respected by playing the game now? Do you seriously want to hire Graham on the basis of winning a championship in England 11 years ago?
George Graham has a proven record both domestically and in Europe... Just because he didn't turn Spurs or Leeds into World beaters doesn't mean he does not have what it takes. He had limited resources at both clubs... When he was in charge of Arsenal he had a tremendously effective system that brought them trophies all over the show... I would not mind him being Ireland manager... he might sort out that ridiculous defense of ours - and no, I am not just talking about Russia... Anyone who saw our qualifying games against Portugal and Holland will know that we were damn lucky not to get a severe tonking in one of those games... especially in Portugal... Our attacking players and play are good enough but our defensive play is sadly not...
No it's not. All players, regardless of stature, must respect the coach. No need to rehash it, but what Keane did was wrong! No doubt about it. And if I recall, Quinn, and the other leaders of the team agreed that without an apology, that Mick was making the right call! James
Kevin Kilbane Just goes to show! Kevin was a real prospect in his teens and during his time with West Brom. If you had seen him playing back then, you would have had no doubt he would go on to play senior international football. However, he got played out of position at Sunderland and has stuggled to find his best form since. Its a crying shame, because every so often you see him go on those powerful dribbles that remind you of when he was younger. On the positive side, he always runs his legs off. Its not something you fully appreciate if you only see him on TV. But his up-and-down work rate is hugely impressive and he has provided Ian Harte with good cover. Its not headline-making stuff though and he is a player who could do with the sort of well-remembered goal someone like Matt Holland tends to get! I would love to see him in a new club, where he could start with a fresh slate and rediscover some of the form and promise he had initially. He is a player who's confidence sags too much when he's anyway down.
- were we watching the same game?? i know morrison scored against a poor russian side (which i guess is what he is ultimately there to do) but come on! he's rubbish. his control is rubbish, he can't stand up to a challenge, he can't head the ball, he's always out of position and he has a low work rate - how often do you see him successfully chasing and tackling defenders like robbie? - george graham? is this the same guy who spawned boring, boring arsenal. ok, when he managed to win the 'top' division - don't you mean the old first division 'cause it was so long ago. what has he achieved since? why don't we just defrost charlton and then we'll have gone full circle - your top european team includes five players who are not automatic first choices for their club (not including keane who has yet to start for spurs), two first division players and two players who spend more time on the physio's table than on the pitch. i'm sure the french and italians are quaking in their boots - regardless what we say of mccarthy, his record speaks for itself. his crimes against humanity include showing loyalty to players, some dodgy substitutions and inconsistancies surrounding who gets to play for ireland. - ireland's recent success was down to the team being greater than the sum of it's parts. who do you think was responsible for that?
Yeah - his record does speak for itself. - 2 failed qualifying campaigns... 1 successful. - A propensity for costly tactical blunders: Russia '02, Spain '02, Macedonia '97. - He managed to mismanage his team to such an extent that Ireland has lost its greatest EVER player. This is little short of a national tragedy. And no, McCarthy is not totally to blame - but he is partly to blame. - A succession of reported behind the scenes failures: the training pitch in Saipan, the training equipment, the poor facilities for the preparations for the Spain game, the 12 hour flight to Saipan, the reports of the FAI officials flying 1st class and the player flying economy class. Some of the above obviously comes down to FAI but it should be up to the manager to sort it out - not the captain - again poor management. - His frightening ability to keep faith with shockingly bad performers because they are his favourites. See Mark Kennedy, Kilbane, Breen, Connolly et al. - His complete inability to accept any responsibility for our defeat against Spain. He actually admitted that they did not practise penalties - is he nuts?!? - His lack of ambition. BTW - I also thought Morrison was excellent. He got Ireland loads of free kicks as he tried to hold the ball up on his own... he can't stand up to a challenge?? I thought his strength was pleasantly surprising as he managed to hold off a behemoth like Onopko on several occasions and ultimately draw the foul... He is by no means the finished article but he is young, eager to learn and obviously full of talent... "- ireland's recent success was down to the team being greater than the sum of it's parts. who do you think was responsible for that?" I don't agree. Ireland's success is down to the crop of excellent players that we currently have and Roy Keane. In Roy Keane, Duff, Robbie Keane, Kinsella, Carr, Finnan, Cunningham, Given and to a certain extent Ian Harte we have a team full of big game performers. Keane himself was absolutely gargantuan in our last qualifying campaign and there is nobody that can claim that Ireland would have qualified without him. What we need is a manager who has the balls to remove the dead wood and integrate the new, exciting young players into the team so that we have a team capable of challening in 2004, if we qualify.
george graham, the man who screwed it up at leeds by refusing to play young talent... exactly the flaw the detractors here attribute to mccarthy. you're talking about someone who was shown up by david o'leary - that's david o'leary, folks - for being well past his sell-by date. and player-for-player there are about ten teams in europe who should be kicking our asses, and plenty more on a par. if you think the likes of spain and france don't have their own (superior) versions of healy and o'shea on the bench then you are sadly mistaken.
I think you will find that many of the supposed 'young talent' was slightly too young when Graham was there... Most of them were around 17/18/19 at that stage...
"He managed to mismanage his team to such an extent that Ireland has lost its greatest EVER player" - cokane, catch yourself on! so roy was completely innocent? i was keane's biggest fan but he simply cannot act the way he did without facing the consequences "A succession of reported behind the scenes failures: the training pitch in Saipan, the training equipment, the poor facilities for the preparations for the Spain game, the 12 hour flight to Saipan, the reports of the FAI officials flying 1st class and the player flying economy class. Some of the above obviously comes down to FAI but it should be up to the manager to sort it out - not the captain - again poor management" - i agree to an extent but it is an inherent irish fault in that we always fail to prepare (in roy's words). as any ex-international will tell you it has always been this way, usually worse. mccarthy should only concern himself with matters on the pitch, it's the fai's job to look after things off it "His frightening ability to keep faith with shockingly bad performers because they are his favourites" - i actually agree with you on that one. but i think given recent performances and the public backlash, he can't persist with this for any longer - niall quinn said of england that one reason for the sub standard results/performances was that players could never relax and play to their best because they knew if they had 1 or 2 bad games then they were out. irish players gained confidence from a cohesive team unit that plays for each other as the games in the w.c. show - we'll have to agree to disagree on morrison
I did not in any way say that McCarthy was completely to blame... or that Keane was innocent. As I said above: "And no, McCarthy is not totally to blame - but he is partly to blame." The other party was of course Keane himself. I do not condone Keane's actions - they were petty amd immature... but at the end of the day McCarthy should not have lambasted Keane in front of the entire team and accuse him of faking injury... It does not take a rocket scientist to work out what Keane's reaction would be. This is bad management whatever way you look at it. The big losers in all of this were the children and supporters who love Keane and Ireland and it is a great shame that things turned out the way they did... but McCarthy has to shoulder at least some of the responsibility for the turn of events.
I would have to spread the blame as follows: Keane 40% McCarthy 40% FAI 18% Other Players 2% (for not telling Keane and McCarthy what total idiots they were)
More like McCarthy41% Keane39% FAI 18% Other Players 2% (for not telling Keane and McCarthy what total idiots they were)
'98: An aging team and some promising youngsters coming in. Problem how to blend them. Taking over from Charlton a problem. Don't forget that Charlton's last game in charge, versus the Dutch at Anfield, Ireland started with 4 full backs on the field. Still got to the playoffs. '00: Esentially this team which hadn't fully matured, allied to a tactical error against Croatia. Lost on away goals to Turkey - A propensity for costly tactical blunders: Russia '02, Spain '02, Macedonia '97. What about the other games - Holland, Germany - which were astute tactically? Ireland wins - Well done the lads Ireland loses - McCarthy must go - He managed to mismanage his team to such an extent that Ireland has lost its greatest EVER player. This is little short of a national tragedy. And no, McCarthy is not totally to blame - but he is partly to blame. Yes he is. And Keane was the perfect gentleman with McCarthy always, including the time when he was made captain of his country, he didn't even bother to turn up, preferring to stay in Manchester watching cricket. - A succession of reported behind the scenes failures: the training pitch in Saipan, the training equipment, the poor facilities for the preparations for the Spain game, the 12 hour flight to Saipan, the reports of the FAI officials flying 1st class and the player flying economy class. Some of the above obviously comes down to FAI but it should be up to the manager to sort it out - not the captain - again poor management. Pretty much all down to the FAI. Why should the manager sort out flight schedules? What's next - a riot in the dressing room because there is only Barrys Tea? The training pitch in Saipan is a red herring for a number of reasons. This was not the official base for the squad. It was not where they were going to work on tactics and the like, it was where they went to acclimatise. The fact that Ireland finished all 4 games stronger than its opponents seems to indicate Saipan might have been of use. Furthermore, the FAI and McCarthy were promised that the Saipan field would be watered and tended by ground staff. It wasn't. Does that mean McCarthy also had to fly there early and get up every morning to be a groundsman? How much would you have this guy do? Flying 1st class? The plane was a charter - all seats were the same. - His frightening ability to keep faith with shockingly bad performers because they are his favourites. See Mark Kennedy, Kilbane, Breen, Connolly et al. Fine, throw them out, but with whom do you replace them? Don't forget that he had R. Dunne playing center half bytimes and has no problem dropping him to the bench when others are available. Babb also got the dump when McCarthy felt that he should. Frequently, these players have played because there is no one else available. Having said that he does reward loyalty a little too readily. - His complete inability to accept any responsibility for our defeat against Spain. He actually admitted that they did not practise penalties - is he nuts?!? See above Ireland wins - Well done the lads Ireland loses - McCarthy must go McCarthy NEVER said that Ireland didn't practise penalties. I suggest you reread the quotes and the articles. What he did say was that practising penalties on a training ground, in front of no fans, with nothing on the line is a meaningless exercise as nothing can simulate the tension and responsibility of having to take a penalty when the outcome is on the line. Ireland did practise penalties before the Spain game. Nearly every fan thought it was gong to penalties or at least Ireland's only way past Spain would be on penalties, and I'm sure the same resoning passed through Mccarthy's thoughts. In training Connolly scored 10/10 and Kilbane 9/10 on the day before. Would it have made any difference if both had scored 100/100, when both missed their own penalties when the game was on the line? - His lack of ambition. Like how? He goes out to lose every game? Or decides that a draw will be good enough? Or feels that Ireland should be happy just to have qualified, so let's drink up? BTW - I also thought Morrison was excellent. He got Ireland loads of free kicks as he tried to hold the ball up on his own... he can't stand up to a challenge?? I thought his strength was pleasantly surprising as he managed to hold off a behemoth like Onopko on several occasions and ultimately draw the foul... He is by no means the finished article but he is young, eager to learn and obviously full of talent... We almost agree here. He goes to ground to quickly, doesn't hold the ball well and has yet to learn the difference between Division 1 and International ball, but the potential is there. "- ireland's recent success was down to the team being greater than the sum of it's parts. who do you think was responsible for that?" I don't agree. Ireland's success is down to the crop of excellent players that we currently have and Roy Keane. In Roy Keane, Duff, Robbie Keane, Kinsella, Carr, Finnan, Cunningham, Given and to a certain extent Ian Harte we have a team full of big game performers. See above Ireland wins - Well done the lads Ireland loses - McCarthy must go Some of the above were MIA in Moscow, but every team is allowed one bad game. BTW, of the above list, only Keane has won honours. Keane himself was absolutely gargantuan in our last qualifying campaign and there is nobody that can claim that Ireland would have qualified without him. True, absolutely true. What we need is a manager who has the balls to remove the dead wood and integrate the new, exciting young players into the team so that we have a team capable of challening in 2004, if we qualify. It's too easy to say McCarthy must go. Name someone who can come in now and do the job, someone who will have the respect of the players, someone who will not need a learning curve to get used to the players or international football. The same goes for the emerging players. O'Shea and Reid and Healy still have a lot to learn about international football, before being thrown in at the deep end. Morrison, who has a bit more seasoning, still looked lost at times in Moscow. He did score and that is always good. In general a qualifying campaign is no place to blood a new unnamed manager, nor a time to blood 3/4/5 ingenues for every game.
Samarkand, you took the words right out of my mouth, apart from: - I think the loyalty factor is part of what's halped McCarthy to get the team to perform so well (eg McAteer), although obviously it can be taken too far... - I don't think Morrison played all that well overall in Moscow - he was knocked around far too easily and just didn't seem ready to fight for the ball. Whether this was part of the general bad performance, or just nerves (remember, coming on to replace Damien Duff in Moscow in your first competitive game could have been pretty daunting!), who knows? I do think he can play much better though, and he's looked hungrier in the friendlies. He took his goal well, and was a threat in the box. Apart from that, I back everything that Samarkand just posted....
I don't. Year 2000, Micks fault completley. Ignore the bull, we played int he last match against a nobody and he decided to go ten men behind the ball and we could only get a draw. Secondly, astute tactically against Germany? Is this the same world cup where every second half he subbed off Ian Harte, put Duff on the wing and we ran riot? An astute tactical manager would have started that team. 1st half preformances 0-1 Cameroon. 0-1 Germany. 1-0 Saudi, with many a scare. 0-1 Spain. 2nd half preformances 1-0 Cameroon 1-0 Germany 2-0 Saudi 1-0 Spain. Why did we start with the first half team every last time? Because he hasn't got the guts to drop players he likes, seen by his subbing on of Connolly instead of Morrison, and even worse, calling up Mark Kennedy instead of Steven Reid. This is the man who dropped Dennis Irwin, the greatest full back we've had in years, told him he had to prove himself, again, this a a Man United legend, and played Ian Harte as a centre half. The Holland game astute tactically? Explain that tactics, please, like leaivng the worst player on the pitch, on the pitch, when the far superior Steve Finnan warmed his arse on the bench? The obvious thing happens, off goes Kelly, red card, on goes Finnan who sets up the goal. "His frightening ability to keep faith with shockingly bad performers because they are his favourites. See Mark Kennedy, Kilbane, Breen, Connolly et al. " Steven Reid, Damien Duff, John O'Shea and Clinton Morrison, in that order. "- His lack of ambition. Like how? He goes out to lose every game? Or decides that a draw will be good enough? Or feels that Ireland should be happy just to have qualified, so let's drink up?" Two examples, first of all, the Holland away game. We throw away a two goal lead and end up with a draw when we should have won, Roy Keane comes off the pitch looking down, as do most of the players, on comes Mick dancing around like we'd won the bloody world cup. Secondly, and more importantly, Roy Keane himself said (And I'm no Keane supporter btw) that Mick had drilled the mentality into the players that it was a good enough achievement just being there and getting to the second round would be a massive success, Keane, and he wasn't the only one, went there to win it. We may not have won it, but if you're not ambitious why are you in a job? "We almost agree here. He goes to ground to quickly, doesn't hold the ball well and has yet to learn the difference between Division 1 and International ball, but the potential is there." One start, three goals. If you can't recognise what a natural goal scorer is clearly you don't know the sport, Robbie Keane isn't one, Clinton Morrison is, all good teams need one and they are the perfect foil for each other. "O'Shea and Reid and Healy still have a lot to learn about international football, before being thrown in at the deep end" Rubbish re O'Shea, if he can win man of the match making Hasselbaink, then he's better then Breen or Cunningham, period, inexperience or not. If you're good enough, you're old enough, and this lad is good enough. Now, a few of his other mistakes. Playing our best player out of position, for a start, is possibley the stupidest and most frustraiting thing any manager can do. Damien Duff is no striker, he gets phyisically out done and is frankly no use up front, he is, however, a world class left winger, so why not play him there? Instead, he plays Kilbane, the man who said he wont play players not getting their game picks Kilbane, a man who can't get into the Sunderland subs bench, over Duff and not to mention Butler, the man keeping him out at club level, and Stephen McPhail is another example. He is tactically inept, the world cup showed it all. He was too blind to see the same mistakes he made every last game, wtf was the thinking behind dropping the best right back in the premiership for a Leeds reserve? Same mistakes every damn dismal first half preformance after the other, it was a case of "let's hope we're not trashed in the first half so we can play our good team in the second" and this is squarley on the shoulders of Mick McCarthy. He is tactically inept, he has never proved otherwise and has been a lucky manager, Holland bailed us out in Portugal, he messed up in Holland, Shay Given bailed us out against Iran, Roy Keane against Holland and Portugal at home. Mick hasn't got us where we are now, our class players have. Not won honours? Who cares? Has Rio Ferdinand? Would you take Stepinops (sp, the Arsenal guy) over Rio Ferdinand? Finnan and Given voted the best in their positions in England, Duff one of the best youngstes around, Robbie Keane has done it at international level (Though no thanks to Mick, partnering him with Duff is a crime against the lad) these are quality players making a useless manager look better then he is. Please McCarthy, walk while club chairmen will still be stupid enough to give you another job.
OK, we have a difference of opinion on McCarthy, kind of like the glass is half full versus the glass is half empty syndrome. If you think getting to a playoff match and losing is fine, well good for you. However, not qualifying for the World Cup in 98 and Euro 2000 are failures in my book for whatever reason. Tactically during the WC, he did fine. The team played its heart out and got beaten by Spain on penalties. No shame in that. However I think if the players on the field actually were made aware that Spain were playing with 10 men for the last 30 minutes, they would have pushed more and maybe have gotten the win before penalties. Agsin, this is a McCarthy mistake. Regarding Saipan, McCarthy was the one who went there early in the year to scout it out so yes, he is partially responsible for the facilities and the condition of the field etc. I have to agree with Roy Keane on one thing when he said that Ireland must make a step up from the old "sure its grand and we'll have a good time anyway" attitude to the "no, this isnt good enough for us, we can do better" one. I think McCarthy is of the former group of people (along with the FAI).