Mathis On Playing Overseas

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by Nimbus2000, Nov 11, 2003.

  1. Nimbus2000

    Nimbus2000 Member

    Mar 6, 2001
    Maine
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  2. Bryan Gividen

    Bryan Gividen New Member

    Mar 8, 2003
    Provo, UT (BYU)
    He'll probably end up the same place he ended up in America... on his fat ass watching tv....

    I'm just kidding really, the joke was there...

    Anyways, I subscribe to the idea that Mathis isn't going to cut it anywhere but maybe Scotland. I could see him playing for a mid-table Division 1 club in England or a relegation bound Bundasliga team, but I don't see him attracting a lot of teams outside of there. He isn't physical enough, he is a hot and cold player, and the comments both his coaches made about him just after the World Cup dent his credibility... Really, the only thing that MLS gains out of this is that if he gets rejected by a bunch of clubs they can easily lower his contract...

    Thought just hit me...

    Clint could be a bargain player at $400,000 a season making at least $80,000 more than he could in MLS... maybe he will end up in Europe at a cheap price. Still, while I don't personally know Clint, he seems to have an ego that wouldn't take that kind of paycheck...

    So back to my original point, he ends up in one of the places I said, or back here in MLS where they lower his contract slightly.
     
  3. Ronaldo+10

    Ronaldo+10 New Member

    Aug 20, 2003
    Los Angeles
    Seriously you would have to be a pretty dumb coach to sign mathis. Maybe a scotish league relegation bound club, but other then that any european club could get alot better players from Europe and south america for alot less wage wise. 33 goals in 4 seasons, thats a horrible mark !
     
  4. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That scoring total is misleading. Mathis missed more than half of both the 2001 and 2002 seasons, and you're not including the 3 goals he scored for the Galaxy in 2000.

    Scoring totals:

    1998 - 30 games, 5G 10A

    1999 - 27 games, 7G 6A

    2000 - 29 games, 16G 14A
    13G 13A in 21 games after trade to Metrostars

    2001 - 10 games, 7G 5A
    ACL injury ended season early

    2002 - 14 games, 4G 2A
    Never really in team - recovering from injury early on, and then missed much of season due to World Cup and subsequent injury

    2003 - 22 games, 9G 1A
    Not a terrible strike rate...


    You have to remember that the MLS season is shorter (less matches to score goals in) and Mathis missed a lot of time due to injuries and US national team commitments.
     
  5. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd like to add:

    * Patrick Suffo gets minutes as a striker for no less of a national team than Cameroon, despite never scoring more than 4 goals in a season for any professional club anywhere.

    * Clinton Morrison, who seems to get plenty of respect from the world soccer community, scored 22 goals in 45 matches in his BEST season in Division 1. (His next best, in terms of striker rate, was 12 in 29.) The general consensus being that MLS is of similar standard to Division 1, it seems like Morrison's credentials are inferior to Mathis's.

    * Remember Emmanuel Olisadebe, who was tearing up European national teams a while back? He's never scored more than 12 goals in a season for any club.


    And more relevant:

    * Matt Jansen was bought by Blackburn Rovers (then in the Premiership) for 4 million pounds after scoring 7 goals in 18 matches that season for Crystal Palace in Division 1. His career-best strike rate, 23 goals in 40 matches in Division 1 for Blackburn, isn't much more impressive than Clint's, and this was AFTER he had some Premiership experience under his belt.

    * Paul Dickov, supposedly Leicester's best striker, scored 16 goals in 42 Division 1 matches last season, on a team that ran roughshod over the division. Their other starting striker, Marcus Bent, scored 21 goals in a total of 61 appearances for Ipswich Town, also in Division 1.

    All three of these players are fairly well-respected in England though they don't play for big clubs. None of them have better strike rates than Mathis against similar opposition (Division 1). By comparison, Mathis should be able to do fairly well for anyone in the lower half of the EPL.
     
  6. jri

    jri Red Card

    Sep 28, 2000
    boca
    Stick a giant bag of Doritos behind the goal, and you'll see HUGE PRODUCTION from Clinto-inho...

    Seriously, he'd be fine with lower table Premiership club (as said) IF HE IS WILLING to do the dirty work of starting in Premiership...which he only showed off/on for Bruce/etc.
     
  7. olafgb

    olafgb New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    Germany
    I can imagine that some Bundesliga or EPL clubs are still interested, but this very much depends on a performance related contract after his history of injuries and inconstant striking rates.
     
  8. soccerfreak #1

    soccerfreak #1 New Member

    Oct 6, 2003
    Cologne
    So Mathis scored 48 goals in 123 games in a league comparable to a second league in England, Italy, Spain or Germany. His rate is 0.39.
    Andrej Voronin of Cologne has a scoring rate of 0.38(29 in 77) in the second league and is 4 years younger(and more talented, by miles), so why should a club prefer Clint Mathis?
    Voronins strike-partner Marius Ebbers has a scoring rate of 0.44(35 in 79).
    Frankfurts latest signed striker Nico Frommer scored 34 goals in 90 games(0.38) in the second league and is 2 years younger than Mathis.
    Moenchengladbach-striker Arie van Lent is 33yo, but has a scoring rate in league 2 of 0.48(49 in 103) and also made 22 Bundesliga goals in 87 games.

    That are the strikers of the three BOTTOM clubs in the Bundesliga that are experienced in playing second league. So why should any of those clubs try to buy Clint Mathis??

    And another big problem for Mathis is that no one knows how he could handle the change of style?
    In europe the game is faster than in the MLS, even in the second leagues. So it would be a very high risk for a european side to sign him.
     
  9. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I don't think you can tell too much from statistics, even for strikers. Obviously if he didn't get any goals at all that would mean something but 48 in 123 isn't too bad. I think you can tell even less with the assists because, as I understand it, you can only be credited with an assist if you actually touch the ball so runs off the ball don't apparently count for anything. Anyone who knows anything about the game knows that's nonsense.

    I think the more important aspect is how he looks on the pitch. I've only seen him a couple of times since the WC and he has sometimes looked disinterested but it depends on how the rest of the team is playing and how the ball is being fed up to him. I tend to think he's the sort of player who needs the ball played into his feet quickly so he can turn a less mobile defender or receive it early and run at the defense. In the matches I've seen which, I agree, is probably too few to extrapolate from, he's had the ball lofted up to him and then tried to play people in which I don't think is really his game.

    Having said that I think it's a part of the game he needs to develop but there have been quite a few strikers who have been successful without being brilliant at it..

    Can I gather from the cryptic comments that Mathis has a weight problem? That could indicate a bad attitude - or it could be simply lack of motivation on the part of the coach - or maybe that he's lacking confidence - on the pitch I mean; you can't tell anything from what people say, it's how they play.
     
  10. Bruce S

    Bruce S Member+

    Sep 10, 1999
    great, rational post. How does Clint play? Two years ago, the answer would have been:brilliantly, the best most creative striker the USA has ever had.With a shot the equal to almost any in the world.And to add more, brilliant free-kicks.Then he had a knee problem, a wieght problem, an attitude problem, a goal scoring problem.So can he get it back? I think nearly every single person on these boards hopes so, even though I have severe doubts.Stories like these don't usually end well.
     
  11. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He's lost the weight problem. At this point, I'd say the main reasons his scoring rate dropped off are:

    1) General lack of motivation - he's looked disinterested in every match I've seen him play since the World Cup. This may change if he goes to Europe; but it also might not.

    2) Poor team tactics - Andy got it right on, Mathis has not gotten the ball to feet for most of the last two seasons. Also, the Metros' wing play got significantly worse as the season progressed, and opponents were able to shut down Mathis (and everyone else, for that matter) by clogging the center. This should change if he goes to Europe.

    The skills are still there, as Mathis demonstrated earlier this season. It all depends on whether or not he's willing to work hard on the pitch.
     
  12. jd2084

    jd2084 New Member

    Aug 1, 2001
    Rhode Island
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mathis still is a very talented player and is only 27 years old. That gives him a good 4 years of service, if his body holds up.

    The one thing you still see out of Mathis is the ability to produce the brilliant pass or the unexpected shot or move. One of the most difficult things to defend is an unpredictable player and Mathis is just that. He has a quick shot, makes good one time passes and can possess the ball on the dribble. If he is motivated he is a very desireable player, especially as a withdrawn forward/attacking mid.

    With all that said - Go Clint, do us proud - you fat f*&k.
     
  13. olafgb

    olafgb New Member

    Jun 6, 2001
    Germany
    You're "forgetting" his 38 assists, makes 86 scorer points in 124 games - surely everything but bad. Additionally stats don't tell you everything... you're comparing Voronin with van Lent, Frommer and Ebbers, who are entirely different kinds of players. Voronin has awful stats in his first Bundesliga season at the moment, but still he is one of Cologne's best players. Also, how often does this happen that a player is awful in one, but top in another club? This all depends on the profile of the player you need for your team... I think Mathis might be a good fit for Gladbach, who are desperately in need of a good striker for little money. The risk that he doesn't make it of course is existing, but - as I said - it can be compensated with a performance related contract.
     
  14. jri

    jri Red Card

    Sep 28, 2000
    boca
    Olafgb has it right....you sign Clint to a contract in which he only gets his if he stays healthy and produces (some)..

    However, anyone who's really watched Clint (over past 5 years, not just last 2) and knows top leagues....knows Clint has the talent to play at a high level.....he has done some extroadinary things in certain games, and has/had a dead, heavy shot that could put a hole thru a concrete wall......this is all a question of other things that are worth taken a chance on....under right circumstances...

    If nothing else, it is hard to imagine Clint won't be motivated by new surroundings...that alone should bring back some of the old Clint...

    I hope he does reads the boards and gets a huge freakin' chip (pun intended) on his shoulder about all this...
     
  15. Metrogo

    Metrogo Member

    Apr 6, 1999
    Washington Hghts NY
    But I think you're missing the point, and that is there's a lot more to rating a player than purely strike rate. This is typical of the American soccer fan, who is used to the obsession with statistics from other American sports, and who may not be as sophisticated as the European soccer fan, who very often grew up only with soccer. And I might add that very often during these years Mathis was played as a midfielder, and at times a defensive midfielder.

    I disagree with the first post, I don't think the Soccernet article suggests he's gone at all, or that's what he wants to go to Europe at any cost. Seems to me the situation would have to be right. And while I'm not suggesting that MAthis will stroll on to a top Euro team, the hyperbole about him being equipped only to play for a relegation bound Scottish team is just ignorant.
     
  16. Thomas A Fina

    Thomas A Fina Member

    Mar 29, 1999
    Hell
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Another major problem with Clint is the fact that he has lost a step due to all the injuries. He is not the same explosive player he was.
    That said, some EPL team that has problems scoring could definitely take a flyer on him with anm incentive-laden contract.
    It is not the weight - it is more the attitude - and that I think will change if he gets a challenge.
     
  17. panicfc

    panicfc Member+

    Dec 22, 2000
    In my chair, typing
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've been told that the hernia surgery he suffered takes about 6 months to heal, sometimes longer. Add the knee injuries, and he's had a rough couple of years.

    With that said, early in the season we saw flashes of brilliance from Clint, but as the season progressed he did seem disinterested, it also does appear correct that he was having trouble with getting fouled and the refs letting him get beat up.

    I wish him well, and I'd take him at West Ham in a heart beat.
     
  18. Scoey

    Scoey Member

    Oct 1, 1999
    Portland
    I get the sense that Clint is goine if he gets any sort of reasonable opportunity. Whether he gets such an opportunity is the real question, though. I think the only teams that will be interested will be those: 1) looking for a bargain; and/or 2) willing to take a risk. How many teams, in this market, are interested in shelling out cash for such an enigma? Methinks not many.
     
  19. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
    This is just a guess here -- but one thing I think may play into all this is that while the pre-WC 2002 Mathis (with all the hype, plus the big games against Brazil and Germany and a good qualifying tournament) probably would have gone to a "big" club without a trial. That's pretty rare for American players, especially those who aren't playing oveseas already. (I wish it would happen more often!)

    But Clint's star has fallen since then. (I suppose this is an arguable point and I don't mean to say how far it's fallen because that's even more arguable.) As a result, it may be that he'll require a trial to catch on at bigger clubs now. If he's motivated and fit when these trials come around, I suspect that more than a few teams will be willing to get a look at a player of his talent and reputation who's available on a free.
     
  20. m vann

    m vann Moderator
    Staff Member

    Colorado Rapids, Celtic FC, & Louisville City
    Sep 10, 2002
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Celtic FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It seems to me that Clint gets effected by what's going on around him. He seems to loose focus when s@#$ hits the fan. Basically he lacks some confidence and that's why I think a move abroad will help. He just needs a change to get away from all the BS, whether self-imposed or not, that sorrounds him.
     
  21. wolfsburgh

    wolfsburgh Member

    Aug 6, 2001
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Mathis would fit right in at Gladbach, since the prerequisite for being a striker there seems to be having a surgically reconstructed knee. Seriously, it's an interesting thought, but I think that between van Lent, van Hout (the two guys who blew out ACLs), Sverkos and Skoubo (two very young strikers), and some winger types (Aidoo, Ketelaer) who can play up front in a pinch, they probably aren't going to be looking at a striker near term. That being said, Mathis can play in a withdrawn role which, as Fach transitions the team from a 4-3-3 to a 4-4-2, might be of some interest to the team. He could replace van Houdt, who sort of had that role before he was told he was surplus to requirements (van Houdt, for those interested, is IMHO the prototypical Borussia player--works hard, looks good on the ball, but seems utterly incapable of providing an offensive threat to the opposing team).
     
  22. wolfsburgh

    wolfsburgh Member

    Aug 6, 2001
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Let me also add that at 27, this is probably Mathis' one and only bite at the apple (assuming a 3-year K). Accordingly, my guess is that he's not going to be particularly interested in second division offers. A chance to be the 4th striker on a first division side might appeal to him more than the chance to start for a lower-division side.
     
  23. soccerfreak #1

    soccerfreak #1 New Member

    Oct 6, 2003
    Cologne
    But they still try to get Forsell. They would do anything for getting him.
    Mathis also seem to be too expensive for them.
     
  24. MarioKempes

    MarioKempes Member+

    Real Madrid, DC United
    Aug 3, 2000
    Raleigh, NC
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I think the best league for Clint is the French league. I think he would find success at that level and regain his confidence. Bon.
     
  25. wolfsburgh

    wolfsburgh Member

    Aug 6, 2001
    Pittsburgh, PA
    That's a good point. They love Forssell. But . . . I think they don't have the cash to get him (whether on loan or as a transfer). Just before Chelsea loaned Forssell to Birmingham, Gladbach officials went on record that they would spend every penny they had to bring him back to the Bokelberg. Apparently, that wasn't enough, and I suspect that Forrsell's price continues to go up. Mathis would be a more reasonable financial option.

    Gladbach's in a tough spot. They have a new stadium debuting next season, and they certainly don't want to be playing second division soccer next year. Hence, if they are still relegation-threatened at the winter break (a probability), they might be willing to splash some cash for the right player. However, I think their greatest need is a creative, offensively capable midfielder.
     

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