Matchday Thread | GROUP G

Screw it. I had an answer, but it's not worth it. If you honestly don't see the stereotypes you are spouting then pointing it out will not help.

 

Oh, you want to start an argument, huh? Frankly, my friend, you shouldn't, because it will be easy to prove that you'll be on the losing side of it. But since you want it, I'll oblige. So, let's see.

Yep, like you said, "with two less appearances...."
So there you go, Brazil has qualified to appear in two tournaments that Germany failed to make. That's very significant. Brazil is the only team that has played in all 20 World Cups. Failing to qualify is pretty damaging, so I don't see how you try to rationalize that and make of it a good thing as if you were better because you achieved wins in a smaller number of tournaments. It just isn't a good thing. Not qualifying is terrible. So even if you pack some wins there in the tournaments you did qualify for, you still failed to qualify to a couple of tournaments, something that has *never* happened to Brazil.

Also Brazil won five times versus three for Germany. We all know that. I don't need to rub it in.

Now, when I said most other stats, it's direct confrontation head-to-head between nations all games considered, and all sorts of other stats like goals scored, not just WC stats. Brazil has a positive record against almost all nations in the world (the pesky French are a glaring exception - hopefully we'll get them this time since we are on the same side of the bracket).

Brace for it. Direct Head-to-Head, Brazil vs. Germany, source is the official FIFA web site.

Brazil: 12 wins. 5 draws. Germany: 4 wins. Ouch!!! Sorry, friend, I told you.
Goals scored: Brazil, 39. Germany, 24. Ouch again!!! Yep, I told you.

Sure, Germany is a close second to Brazil in WC general stats except for overall wins which Italy has one more than you guys (four Cups), but still, whatever you say, simply Brazil's Mens' National Team has a better record than Germany's, with more titles, and including head-to-head, and there is nothing you can say that will change that. These are facts, and the official record keepers confirm them. So, no argument here.

You are certainly the one nation that could catch up to Brazil, but you haven't done it yet, and even if you win this Cup, you'll be still behind for at least another 4 years - by which time the new Brazilian generation might very well rebuild and add to their dominance.

See, that's the problem when we engage in these Internet discussions. People challenge Brazil. We show them facts showing that we are ahead. Then they call us arrogant (not that you did, but I'm being proactive). You know, facts are facts. There is nothing arrogant about laying them down. It's not my fault that Brazil has a better record. *You* wanted to start an argument.

Cheers and congratulations; Germany has a great national team football program. Still, it is behind Brazil's.

 

One correction: Germany always qualified. They weren't there in 1930 because that tournament was by invitation only and Germany wasn't invited. They also missed 1950 because they weren't allowed to participate after the war.

 

Germany didn't fail to qualify for any World Cup. They didn't take part in 1930 because they had no money to travel (virtually no European team took part here) and in 1950 they were still banned from taking part due to WWII.

Germany always qualified for World Cups. In fact Germany only ever lost two WC qualifying matches in their history, ironically both at home so they are still unbeaten in WC qualifying away matches.

Otherwise you can't compare Brazil and Germany. Brazil have obviously been more successful.

 

Oops, sorry, we crossed the streams here

 

(And also intended to benztown) - Well, my turn to say oops, sorry. I stand corrected. I hadn't really realized that the two Cups that Germany did not participate in, had nothing to do with football quality. Without ever looking it up, and like for most other countries when they don't show up, I had just assumed they somehow failed to qualify. It's a gap in my football history knowledge, which is hereby corrected thanks to the input of the two of you.

 

Also, while Brazil clearly is the most successful nation in international football, Germany is the most consistent one.

With the exception of 1938 (when a certain Adolfo Hitler decided that it wasn't enough to fail as an artist, an actor and a dictator, but that he should also ruin German football by determining the starting 11), Germany has always been among the last 8 nations at a World Cup provided they participated. Which also means that since 1954, Germany has always been among the last 8.

 

Like I've acknowledged already, sure, you guys *are* the second best in stats.
Still, you are the *second* best, not *the best.* That position is taken. It belongs to Brazil. These are facts that are not open to argument, so, I don't see why we should be arguing.

But I'll be honest. Let's talk about the current tournament.

Sincerely, I think the German national team this time is better than Brazil's - which doesn't mean Germany will win. They are playing in South America and they don't have the home crowd. Brazil doesn't lose an official game in home soil for the last 39 years. But at least in group phase I was more impressed with Germany than with Brazil, so far.

 

On the BBC football podcast the South American correspondent said something that I thought summarised this Brazil team perfectly. He said this team doesn't beat you with quality or skill but with 'moments'. And that is a perfect description because the players are average by Brazilian standards and the tactical setup is a bit bizarre (with essentially a totally defensive midfield and no creative forward force in midfield) but they keep winning matches even if they play very poorly because they have 'moments', i.e. Shots or bits of brilliance that largely come out of nowhere but win the game. So you can suss Brazil out tactically, outplay them on the field but they can still beat you with these pockets of excellence out of nowhere
Let's see how far it will take them this time.

 

Well, that's exactly why I remain hopeful. When those flashy moments happen, it doesn't really matter what the opponent's contention plan is; they can't be stopped. That's exactly what - gulp - Messi has done as well. Add to this the huge home field advantage and sense of destiny that both Brazil and Argentina have (yes, Argentina also has home field advantage since they've been bringing 50,000 fans to games), and they *are* the favorites to meet in the final (and then, anything can happen).

I'm a bit encouraged to learn that Paulinho's and Dani Alves's poor performances have finally been acknowledged by stubborn Felipão. People are saying that he is likely to start Fernandinho and Maicon tomorrow.

So, all the above said, both Brazil and Argentina are very fragile. They are over-reliant on their star players. They have had glaring gaps in the back that can be exploited by a savvy team. It's the knock-out stage, so, a moment of miscalculation and it can all come down crashing. Argentina benefits from an easier path to the final, but Brazil will need to survive Chile, France, and Germany, and likely, if done, face another formidable foe in the final, likely either Argentina or Holland.

Do I see this current Brazil having an easy time winning four games in a row against world powers such as the above? Sincerely, no.

But with some momentum, crowd support, home field advantage, and a few moments of brilliance, it definitely can be done. It can also crumble to pieces as early as tomorrow.

 

For me the bigger problem is the midfield, there is too much of a gap between defense and attack because Luiz Gustavo plays too far back for my taste. He gets the ball at his own penalty box and there's no clear path to bring it forward quickly.
Maicon isn't the solution as he's too slow ( I'm sure you have seen what Garreth Bale did to him in the past?). If he gets to play against somebody like Robben he's toast
But having said all this - none of it may matter. They can score goals anway somehow.

 

Maicon - better slow than leaving behind the huge gaps Dani Alves has left when he recklessly pushes up. And yep, I'm glad that Bale doesn't hail from a nation that qualified, LOL.
Midfield: too defensive therefore uncreative. You are right about that.
Still, like you said: Fred has the potential to scoring a weird goal, usually in strange fashion like from the ground, anytime. Neymar can *virtually* score anytime. So, of course, if you concede two goals in blatant mistakes but you suddenly score three, you win.
But this Brazilian team is this close to catastrophic disaster: let Neymar have a high ankle sprain, and Brazil is toast. So is Argentina if the same happens to Messi.

 

Just finished reading some of the posts... Brazil