Match 7 | Germany vs. Australia | June 13th | Post-Match Thread [R]

The point is not that Cacau is the better player, but that he's the better fit for the team.

And Germany typically doesn't field the best players but the best team (just ask Kießling or Kuranyi).
If we did, we'd be like England who time and again field Lampard and Gerrard together even though they've proven that it doesn't work every single time.

Having said that, Klose isn't even the best player. While he has definitely improved over the last friendlies, he still in nowhere near where he used to be. He simply isn't as good on the ground as Cacau is. Klose's biggest asset are his headers, but that's something (as Uli pointed out) that hardly has a place on the German team anymore. We keep the ball on the ground now.

 

Generally I agree with your points. Klose would benefit from a more slow build-up with many crosses style of play, which -thankfully- has not been the case. Personally I'd rather see Kiessling start but Cacau -or even Gomez- works for me.
And regarding the palyer's selection, not nominating the best players has unfortunately been the case for the German NT for a long time, and even though in some cases it didn't really had a negative impact -for example not using Heynckes and Netzer during the late 60's and early 70's- it still is wrong in my books.

 

I think Netzer is a great example. Netzer and Overrath were like Gerrard and Lampard (only better of course). They were the best players Germany had at that time, but they were too similar, so only one of the could play.

I don't want to imagine this German NT with Kuranyi and Frings on the field...I don't think we'd have seen anything like we did in the game against Australia.

 

he improved as the game went on in every aspect.

and importantly, the opponents don't know. They still respect klose

 

Besides speed and hustle, I honestly see absolutely nothing else that Cacau can do over Klose. His finishing has always been totally average, he offers nothing in the air, he would get bullied by strong defenses and tends to play good only when the rest of the team plays good (is in sync). If Klose wouldn't start, I'd start Kiessling or Gomez over him personally. He is a player who is having the best form of his career and even that is average or just above it, I never heard of scoring 11 goals being considered "good" for a striker in a whole season?! I think he's a good Plan B type of player though, same with Marin. Nothing more.

Germany will always need someone who can head the ball. How many goals did Germany score with headers before Euro? Not many and that wasn't part of our game yet at the end of the day it proved to be vital vs Portugal when they scored 2 of the 3 goals from set-pieces (which just like now, they were ineffective before the game). You always need someone good in the air, if you only have one way of playing you become predictable and easier to stop.

 

The fact that Germany has never lost with Klose scoring indicates to me that he hasn't been all that poor a "fit" for the German side.

In my book, a good team is one that can vary its play. That doesn't mean merely playing the ball on the ground; it includes having a lethal option in the air.

Germany now has a player like Ozil who has flair and who can do nice things with the ball at his feet. The Germans aren't the team that merely crosses the ball in the box now. But that doesn't mean Germany should not have the option of doing so, and having a player like Klose allows Germany that option more clearly, which itself opens space elsewhere on the field, including to move the ball down the middle.

Besides, as I have mentioned, Klose doesn't just merely score from headers. 4 of his 5 goals in WC06 were with his feet, not head.

 

netzer WAS used. He was just injured for WM 70 and 74, completely and partially.

Heynckes wasn't needed more than he was used really. Mueller was up front and plenty of skilfull ballplayers around him. Grabowski, Kremers anyone? Overath was voted the best midfielder at WM70. Then there was beckenbauer as well.

anyway back on topic

 

how long have you been watching german football? just curious

 

None of the strikers have proven to not be clinical enough, none are actually. My main problem with Cacau isn't his poor finishing (which is worse than Gomez's, Kiessling's & Klose even if he scored 5 goals last season), it's the type of striker he is. He is someone who plays behind the main striker usually. If Germany make it to the round of 16 or quarter-final and play a quality team with good defense, I can see him running back trying to play with the rest of the team while there is no one making the CBs work, thus making him a headless chicken with good hustle. As a sub, he offers pace and like I said in my other post, his hustle can actually be a good thing since the defense is tired. Considering he is a different "type" of striker, he could surprise the defense in the first 10 minutes he comes in, same with Marin and his dribbling abilities.

Either way Klose has earned himself another start for scoring, lets see what he does next match. I'm just glad Loew sees Trochowski as a "squad player", that was far more important to me and Muller rightfully started (what a game by him!)

 

There you go, common sense. I do not see the hard-on for playing only one way, apparently being more predictable is the way to go.

 

Netzer was just fine in 74, he didn't play because Schon never forgave him for moving to Madrid and because Beckenbauer simply prefered Overath. In 1970 he was in painkillers over the last weeks of the season but Schon decided not to include him at all. And even though he might not be needed -with hindsight he wasn't-, Heynckes should still be a major part of the NT. His goalscoring record was just too good to be ignored.

Anyway, we got off-track quite a bit so I'll end it here.

 

I don't think Cacau is quicker than Klose. But he's technically better which is vital in a system like the one we're playing now. We can't afford to lose the ball too often. Cacau's more involved in the game, his passes are more accurate and he doesn't always cause offside situations. He's simply better with all kinds of situations where the ball is on the ground, including scoring goals.

His finish is above average, even though he is a "playing" striker and his headers are also pretty good, definitely better than Gomez, Podolski and Kießling (at least from what I've seen from Kießling), although I grant you that he has nothing on Klose there.

I've never seen him getting bullied. He's at least as physical as Klose. And better to play only good when the team plays good than to never play good even when the team plays good...

Well, I wouldn't, not with the possession game we're playing. With a counter-attack strategy, I'd agree, but that's not an alternative for our team with the players we have.

That's 11 goals in the second half of the season (2010 only). Get your facts straight.
How many did Klose have again?

Again, I don't agree for all the reasons above. Klose in his current form is a plan B striker. If our strategy doesn't work he could come in to offer additional areal threat. Gomez or Kießling could be an option when we're ahead but under a lot of pressure.

And we do. For set pieces we have Khedira or Friedrich who are pretty good, Mertesacker who's really tall and Cacau isn't even half bad at it either.

Exactly, Klose (in 2010) has only one strength and is therefore predictable and easy to stop.

 

First of all, it is a mistake to consider only Klose and Cacau; Gomez and Kiessling are also in the mix. And I still think that Klose right now is the worst of the 4. Yesterday besides the goal he scored and a good pass to Ozil at the first half he didn't do anything else positive, instead he ruined some perfectly good chances. I don't see this to be good enough to earn him a second start. Cacau also scored yesterday on the only chance he was given, shouldn't that earn him a start with that logic? The problem with Low though is that the player who really deserves the starting spot based on performance -Kiessling- didn't even come as a substitution with the score already 4-0. Instead, personal preferences dictate his decisions, but this will hurt the team sooner or later -Trochowski being a part of a team is another example of personal preference, I;m just glad Hitzlsperger was not included this time.

 

Ever since the first World Cup I watched, when I was rooting for the Dutch in the 1974 final against Germany.

Don't read my comment as a slight on German football. As most of Iran's legionnaires moved to the Bundesliga, I became a fan of German football. I rooted for them even when neutrals didn't like Germany, like in WC02. And I wasn't trying to suggest that Germany ever was a side that just crossed the ball into the opponent's box, although they seemed a bit like that in WC98 including against Iran. Nor to suggest that Germans football always lacked flair, although I did want to mention that I liked Ozil and what he does for Germany.

 

there's your problem right there :d

did you keep up with the nationalelf before the iranian players started to come over in the 90s and 2000s?

German national teams have been on and off in the playing style. In the last 12 years, 06 started this and this team is taking it much further.
Before that, the 60s and early 70s had it more than this even, then around 1980, and late 80s.

Some people just talk about German football like it started 10 years ago.

 

You honestly seem far too biased to even debate this issue since I disagree on everything you're rating Cacau on. I would love to know if Cacau actually managed to score more than Gomez in headers when they both played for Stuttgart during any season, but I think we already know the answer to that. I do not see Cacau as a better passer than Klose (this is a ********ing ludicrous statement since he's never come close to Klose in assists.. ever), he gets more involved but Klose is far more intelligent than him. You basically rate Cacau in a lot of other parts of the game, and I honestly see him being better than Klose in only two things. You're right he did score 11 goals in just one half, and a majestic 5 in the other half. 16 goals in total for one season on his best season shows he's never been a good finisher. You using Freidrich (lol) and Mertesacker just because he's tall as weapons for Germany as players who can score on headers basically sums up just how dire Germany is in that department when you take out a player who can head the ball.

It certainly worked vs Australia :S

 

Once he scored his goal and gained confidence, he was playing very good with the rest of the team. The good thing is we can change him if it doesn't work, so I don't mind him being given another chance. He needs to find his shooting boots though.. :S

 

Klose is "the man". And this game was nothing to drop him by. But if needed, Cacau is dangerous, skilled and ready to come on immediately. I'm satisfied with that.

 

You have to take circumstances into account. The first half of the season was terrible for Stuttgart, they didn't create enough chances. That's why Cacau only started to score once Gross took over. But even ignoring that, the WC is played in 2010, not 2009. And in 2010 I don't see how anyone could take Klose above Cacau, especially in a system that's tailor made for someone like Cacau.

And if you think that I'm too biased, you don't have to go any further than the link I provided.

Yes, Klose scored a trade mark header. Great, but what else did he offer? He caused several unnecessary offsides, he gave away two sitters, blew another two good chances and otherwise wasn't very involved...although much more than against Bosnia, but that wasn't very hard, was it.

 

I should mention that Klose's goal was very critical. It killed Australia and any chance they might have had to return to the game. Cacau's goal was a sitter and really didn't change anything in that match. Not to underestimate the value of someone with Cacau's attributes for Germany either. He can help Germany as well, coming in as a sub on those occasions when his attributes are more important than what Klose has to offer.

 

I think he did enough to warrant him another chance to start once again.

This whole lets just look at 1/2 season to bum up players is not something I do, which is why we disagree here. Otherwise Marin would start over Podolski and we saw this match why Loew stuck with Poldi.

 

Well, I can certainly live with Klose up front. I just think Cacau would be better. He has done consistently well this year, both for his club and his country.

Just to underline my point some statistics from the game:

Minutes played:
Klose 68
Cacau 22

Passes played:
Klose 14
Cacau 12

Long passes:
Klose 4
Cacau 1

Medium passes:
Klose 7
Cacau 5

Short passes:
Klose 3
Cacau 6

 

That statistic really means nothing considering the game was already over by the time he came in the field as well as the red card. No one cared about the game but the 3 substitutes playing by that time, it's different when you start and need goals.

 

Here as customary, the "RAP"portage about the Germany - Australia game by the German band Blumentopf:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL4ck38Mt30"]YouTube- 2. RAPortage Blumentopf WM 2010[/ame]

 

Ha ha ha...lololol....That is pretty bad, but it made me laugh. Nice find.