I re-read your post, so just to follow up, on the tactical side, I think you could make a case for interference in the build up, but that doesn't quite make the higher bar of stopping a promising attack. Re: handball as a delay tactic. It is only possible to card for delaying the restart of play. If an offense ends up resulting in some kind of unfair loss of playing time, the referee can add it back. Re: Argentina getting on the break. I don't think there is evidence for that here, but even if there was it would be tricky as I think it would be too far a stretch to say a player intercepting the ball at midfield was "attempting to score a goal" as that usually means trying to punch it directly in like another Argentinian.
My first thought is that players commit physical fouls to accomplish the same thing all the time. But we don't show a caution every time we suspect the offender has dishonorable intentions, but reserve it for cases when the tactical impact is material and/or the offense is patently dangerous. Second, the Laws provide the referee the option of cautioning players for "persistent offenses". So, whatever the reasons or impact of a player deliberately handling the ball, if it's clear they want to do it anytime the opportunity arises, he/she can be cautioned under that clause. Finally, as @RefIADad noted, deliberate handling is not a mandatory caution under the Laws, but there was a debate here whether the player should/could be cautioned for "lacking respect for the game". That's as vague as it sounds, unfortunately, and there's no strong guidance from The IFAB on what it's there for. A long debate was had here over if this incident met that criterion; you'd do well to read it.
I agree with you that this item falls way, way down on the list of relevancy given everything else that happened in that game. But, I understand the why the public are curious about this one in particular. It was a blatant and petulant act by the world's most famous player that occurred in wide open space and was extremely easy to visually interpret. Most public think any role player gets that card (true or not), so they think Messi is getting off the hook because of his fame and reputation. People love to grouse about their perception of injustice.
I get all that, but the public is curious largely because of "A" in my post, not because of "B." Which automatically makes any debate with a wider audience about it tiring, if not annoying. I think "B" is what might come up in an assessment. But, as I said, not in this match.
That is what he did. He brought it down to his feet. He won the ball. It can immediately start an attack, with all but two opponents left behind and help not too far away. That's a pretty nice risk/reward strategy if your handball isn't as obvious. At worst it is only a free kick, at best a counter-attack and chance (hoping the VAR doesn't rewind the video as far back). But that 'starting an attack' was not the essence of my reply and (sincere) question. You are always good in immediately starting to ridicule others ("I don't know what to tell you" - your modus operandi in any first reply). Yes I know what you have implicitly and directly said earlier in previous posts. It is Messi, it is Argentina, it can make the crowd (for literally 99% blue) go berserk (in Copa Libertadores final style), it can escalate the moods of everyone, it derails the game. That is the gist of it. That is all nice and well, but if a non-Messi in a non-blue shirt had seen a card for this (in any KO game) it is far from certain we would have seen objections here or anyone batting an eyelid. The lights of a wrong or injustice wouldn't start to flicker. Which I now understand better given the re-iterated and repeated clarifications by IFAB. I can remember Neymar doing this more than once when in the trickster, dummies and flicks mood, he got a yellow, and virtually no one objected (yes, I cannot back this up, admittedly). I understand too much attention has been given to the handball.
But that has nothing to do with a cautionable offence, so it's irrelevant. The entire argument here has rested on how blatant and obvious the handball was. Now we're supposed to imagine a scenario where the handball wasn't as obvious and punish accordingly? Not sure why you made it the argument then. I chose to reply to it because it was the only new argument to the thread that I saw in your post. Your definition of "ridicule" doesn't align with mine. There reaches a point (in this case, 18 pages and dozens and dozens of posts about the handball) where debate is probably exhausted. I am, personally, out of any additional arguments. The idea that you think I wrote that in my first reply when I have dozens of posts in this thread is humorous. Here you are just making stuff up. When did I say anything about the crowd? Or it being Argentina? You are quite literally just inventing things out of whole cloth. I said what I meant here. It's a discretionary card at best. Look around at this World Cup and others. You don't give non-contact discretion cards to one of the best players to ever play--it just doesn't happen. And you certainly don't do it in an incredible tense and physical game. Also, if you had read what I said, I wrote that the argument 99% applies to every other player on the field. Messi being the player in question is just the cherry on top here. Just like Messi being the player is the only reason that anyone is still talking about it. That point goes both ways. You're wrong. On two counts. First, it's highly unlikely a referee would give the yellow card because of all the things written above. And, second, if it was given, you would have seen me and everyone else who interprets the Laws the same way saying "wait, why did he give a yellow card for that?" because we literally don't think it's a yellow card offence.
The irony of this whole thing IMO is that this handball never even happens if Lahoz has a different approach, in fact, I think it was the first major warning sign of the game that sh*t was about to go south. It seemed to me to be the first significant outward act of defiance directed toward the referee, which is my guess as to why he did it at all. If it came up in my debrief, it would be as a discussion point on how the game got to that point and then how the game took a turn for the worse after it.
I think that's MassRef's point, in part. And I agree. That handball was small beans in the big picture as far as ALL OF THE OTHER THINGS GO. While this play shows the typical escalation and can happen in any adult game, but it's part of the game, I think the handball was the bigger warning sign. While insignificant on its own, it was a direct "F you" to Lahoz from Messi. (No, not dissent, but I really think it was clearly for him) AND Lahoz looked weak in response (no firmness, no humor, and quite unconvincing)... after that, any rep he had left with the players evaporated for the rest of that match
Seen on Mario van de Ende his twitter account: Gedane zaken nemen geen keer. Maar iemand stuurt net dit beeld door. Oké, hmm, dat lijkt toch wel erg op te vroeg inlopen. Was me in t stadion niet opgevallen gisteren. 😯#Oranje pic.twitter.com/ddtCW5cfj8— Maarten Wijffels (@m_wijffelsAD) December 10, 2022 That "up yours, I am the boss, the highest authority, this is my [99% blue] house" affirmed who was the top dog. Retaking the penalty (and missing?) had done wonders for the crowd control, I suppose. Or was there maybe also a hidden orange shirt encroachment? Either way, I don't mind much, the GK was wrong footed and not close to saving.
People already hate Lahoz. They all think he makes the game about him. Imagine if he sent off Messi because of this handball YC and then the later dissent YC. In a World Cup semifinal. He wouldn’t ref another game again. That poor bastard
How's that? He wasn't giving out second yellow cards during that match. At least until after that match was over, and only to the team who was already going home...
Can’t send off Messi, we all know that. Which is why not throwing Paredes when fully justifiable was so poor. That was the chance to put his stamp on the game. I’m not seeing ANYONE online that doesn’t agree Paredes should have been off. The whole world was watching and knew that the Argentines were being the bigger ****.
I've been on vacation the last two weeks, and am just getting caught up on BigSoccer commentary, so all I will say is this: This is what happens when FIFA instructs refs to avoid sending players off at all costs.... You've only had three RC's total at the World Cup, an all-time low, and one was a reversal from the VAR, and the other was to a player who was about to go home, for pulling his shirt off after scoring a match-winning goal on MD3. You can blame Mateu Lahoz if you want, but IMHO, the blame lies with the instructions FIFA gave to the refs to do everything possible to avoid sending anyone off.