Match 50 (R16) - United States v Ghana - Post-Match Thread [R]

Basically everyone's expectations were too high and you have to be a soccer realist when it comes to the U.S. team.

In 4 years we will see what happens but most of the quality players will retire from international team, where will get the next pedigree players? MLS you are joking right????

 

Our team isn't that old.

 

In fact, for years we've been talking about 2014 as a serious "top of the cycle" opportunity...

 

We wouldn't miss the world cup at all. If the US and Mexico joined Conmebol, Conmebol would obviously be getting more slots. Of course this wouldnt happen, though I think a future merge of the feds is likely, its just so far off in the distance, it probably won't happen until '26 to '34 at the earliest, making the idea irrelevant for now. That being said, if the US, and Mexico were added to Conembol for the next cycle, (granted it wont happen), Mexico would finish third or fourth, and the US would finish between 4th and 6th. I've seen Mexico compete far too often in the copa to think they're anything less than the third or fourth best side in any combined region there. The US would struggle more because we have no Azteca (or comprable conembol/central american home field advantage nightmare to contend w/for opponents), but i dont have any doubts that the US would advance. The question for me, is what kind of allocation would conmebol get if Mexico and the US moved over there? Would they get 5.5+host, 6.5 w/o a host? Very interesting thing to think about. I definitely think a merging of the feds, or even the US and Mexico and say, another side or two w/interest moving there could be huge for the continued development of the region and really turning it into a massive cash cow. There's a lot of money in that, and money talks, but I dont think its remotely in the near term, i dont think it would happen until at least 2030 or maybe 2026.

 

As for Mexico, I think your prediction isn`t so far from reality, only that I`d say between third and seventh, but in case of the USA, I think that with luck, and lots of it, you would turn out to be second to last or last in CONMEBOL. The variable playing conditions in CONMEBOL, would be by itself a huge challenge for the USA, not mentioning technical ability and fan support of every country that exists here in CONMEBOL . 60 % of the points you would achieve, would be only playing at home, as a visitor, the USA wouldn`t achieve more than 20 % of the points in dispute, which are very normal figures for any of the countries in the Conference. Of course, also it would also be "good-bye" to 8-0 wins, so scoring is way much dificult in the conference. But as Unak78 said, at the beginning you`d put in jeopardy your classification to WC`s, after 2 or 3 process`s, you`d catch up with the rest, and in that moment you would achieve a "style" of your own and what is better, regularity each time you confront good teams, but despite this achievement, you`d still have uncertainty of classifying to WC. About being World Champion in the near or middle future, I think that "lots of water has to flow under the bridge" for the USA to achieve it, there is lots of teams that have had years trying it, in excellent level, without success and they`ll keep on trying, the USA simply has to put itself in this line of teams expecting results to come.

 

Its soccer, we have been watching football for a long time in this country. Sorry, a bit of fun here. That said, Ghana played well, is a better team and played rougher, no doubt; but sadly will fall tomorrow regardless.

 

I have no fear whatsoever of conmebol. A dramatically inferior side made it to the semi's in '95. In '07 we took a collection of scrubs who would never start for even a b team, and a couple of backups and subs, and they weren't played off the pitch in any of the games. Sure, they ended up done and dusted, and were 0 for 3. But that was preordained, you don't start fourth and fifth stringers on defense, and a midfield and collection of forwards that's a mix of backups and guys who wouldnt even play in a c grade winter friendly and expect to win. I was stunned that the boys actually held it close against Argentina for 60 minutes, only really falling apart in the last 15, same deal against Paraguay, relatively close game 2-1, until we gave up an injury time goal to make it ugly, a 0-1 loss to Colombia.

Argentina:

Bornstein-backup right back

Demerit-starting CB

Clark-Backup Holding Mid

Feilhaber-Backup central mid

Paraguay:

Same

Colombia:

Clark: Backup Holding Mid

Davies: His first cap w/the team.

Gomez: One of his first caps with the team.

That's it. Of the 23 that went to copa, Ricardo Clark, the much loathed, no touch, lead foot, card machine who managed to get himself carded out of the confed cup about 20 minutes in, a disaster against England, and quickly carded and removed against Ghana. He's a third or fourth choice mid behind Bradley, Edu, and Jermaine Jones. Jay Demerit, a starting/backup center back depending upon whom plays LB. Benny Feilhaber, a backup attacking midfielder, Bornstein, a nightmare left back w/pace as his only asset, Charlie Davies first ever appearance for us, and Gomez's last (and I think 2nd cap) appearance for us between 2005 and 2010. That's it. And this team wasn't rolled right out of the cup N. Korea style. They actually played with Argentina for an hour, made a game of it with Paragauy for 90, and only lost 1-0 to Colombia rolling out the last of the players who came over.

Last place or second to last is absurd, the US is substantially better than Bolivia, Peru and Venezuela, and can play head to head, no problem with Ecuador, Uruguay, Colombia, and Paraguay. The only teams that would scare it would rightly be Brazil, and Argentina (and incidentally in their last two games against both the US had Brazil down 2-0 before they lost 3-2 due to exhaustion and stupidity, and played a 0-0 draw w/Argentina that infuriated the whole country and i think may have contributed to a coach getting run (Argentina took their first choice guys there). The only teams that scare me in Conmebol are Brazil, Argentina, and this current generation of Chilean players while lead by Bielsa. I'll grant Suarez and Forlan are ridiculous, but nothing else about the team would scare the US.

The US would finish behind Argentina, Brazil, Chile, and Mexico in my view, but after that, they'd slot in somewhere between a combo of Uruguay, Ecuador, Paraguay and Colombia, my guess is between fifth and sixth, w/a chance at fourth.

I don't think we'd stumble at all, i do think it would be challenging as hell, and really help our team become fiercer and tougher out, but as long as we had a half decent coach and relatively health, unlike this cup, we'd be fine, w/o both those factors we might require a playoff, but last or second to last? Don't buy that for a second.

Back to Ghana. Good luck to them today, havent started watching on the DVR yet, but hope they win. As much as I love the Americas, and hated Ghana's act in extra time, a horrible redux of their diving, cheating ways four years ago, they're a great side to watch when they play non-cynical soccer, and I'd love to see these youngsters create a dream come true for CAF and all of Africa and Ghana today. It would be a wonderful story. Good luck to them. Hope they get a very friendly qualifying draw in '13.

 

Personally I think the idea that switching to CONMEBOL would automatically make the US and Mexico better teams is much ado about nothing. There are simply not enough international matches for any team to get better from the few games they play against better teams. A better international team comes from better players and better players come from having plenty of good soccer playing time. African teams are not getting better because of the structure of their league they are getting better because so many of them have started playing in European premier leagues. They are everywhere in the premier leagues of Europe these days look at Ghana's roster. As the MLS improves (and it is) our local players will get better year round experience playing there. As our players improve more of them will start playing overseas in good leagues and do something besides sit on the bench. That is what will make us a better team.

 

This will be my last post related to the issue,since it has gone way to off topic, maybe we can exchange ideas in the US forum related to national teams, which I usually visit as a lurker. OK, here we go :

My friend, it seems you don`t know much about CONMEBOL qualifying system, let me enlight you a little here, only for information, since I think that the CONMEBOL`s teams will finally not accept your participation with them, unless of course it brings with your participation an equally amount of WC slots, for all (CONMEBOL isn`t stupid, but it is ambitious).
The level of the teams is very equal one among each other, with very slight diferences and each team has its own style of playing. When confronted each team tries to do its best according to their virtues and tries to succeed over the others style. There is no mistery on what I just said, actually this is how Football works, only that in CONMEBOL there is lots of diferent scenarios that it seems you are not aware of. For instance both Bolivia and Ecuador, when playing as home, they choose to play their matches at over 3.000 mts of altitude, in an environment in which they are used to play, where the ball is lighter, which will not affect them physiologically, but on the other hand your players who aren`t used to this environment, after the first half of the game, will feel a strong urge for Oxigen, which weakens the body to complete exhaustion. Brazil and Argentina, as you mentioned hate to play there because they have extreme dificulty to achieve good results, most of the times are beaten. In the past qualies, Argentina got defeated by Bolivia 6 - 1, which is not an unlikely result, but it almost costed their coaches head, (Maradona that is, yes, the same one). I don`t think that USA players will do any better given the circumstances. Colombia and Venezuela are very hot and humid countries, after 30 minutes playing there, your body gets in a position, where despite all the water you can intake it isn´t enough for you to avoid the internal body heat. These are external factors, but another point very important is fan support, once your team arrives in to any country, if you manage to sleep a couple of hours a day, then you are a genious. Once you get to the stadium, the players will have to deal with a high crowded stadium full of your opponents supporters, who will get it very clear to you that they hate your guts and if posible they`d kill you in the act p), it is quite disturbing my friend, some players never stop thinking about this the whole game, which affects their performance. At last the managable part is dealing with your opponents quality and level of technical skills, and as I said before, Football is very well developed in all the countries that conform it, not only in one or two, but ALL. (almost every team, has had to be last, once, there is no shame in that) Since the qualification process takes place confronting ALL of the teams, once at home and once as a visitor, the points you can earn as home team are extremely valuable, since the points that you are going to achieve as visitor are going to be very scarce, but unfortunately the diference between the teams that finally classify and those who don`t, is preciselly the points obtained as visitor. It is a very long and harsch process.

Objectively speaking, I`d say that Brazil and Argentina are above the rest in a top group. In the second group, the teams are all equalled in conditions and includes all the rest of the teams, which btw doesn`t mean that anyone can upset one of the top group teams (in the last qualification process, Argentina almost didn`t make it, they saved their ass in the final two games). At the present, I`d say that both Paraguay and Uruguay, are above Chile, but that`s simply my opinion. Of course every point that you manage to take from the top teams, also implies for the others that they must also achieve some good results against them, or better results among each other to compensate those points achieved against the top teams or else you are doomed. In the case of Mexico and the USA you would enter in this second group, only that Mexico has cities where they can prepare themselves in altitude, the USA doesn`t, also they have a very long tradition in Football, which also gives a better position in what to expect. A long tradition only gives you the advantage of having a greater stock of players of national team level playing, which is vital to achieve great results here. In other words you must have lots of possible substitutes for every player, and diferent tactics.

As you said in your last parragraph, it would be challenging as hell, and really help your team become fiercer and tougher out, but at the long run, you`d finally catch up with the rest. I have no doubt about it, maybe faster than what I think, at least for what I care, you proved to me that you guys don`t let your arms fall so easy, when things don`t turn up being favorable. This is what I learned about you, in this WC .

 

The U.S. and Mexico should somehow get into Copa America. That would it a competition almost as exciting as the Euros but not quite as good.

It would help the U.S. grow as team and reach that next level as well.

 

Back to the topic at hand, after reviewing this thread, I believe the accumulated wisdom & BS of the BS posters missed the following points on this match:

1. Bradley was primarily at fault for the first goal, by playing a ball to Clark that RC was clearly not expecting, gave the US no tactical advantage, and put RC in a difficult position as soon as he received the ball. You could fault Clark for not moving further away from Bradley once MB took control of the ball, but little else in this case.

2. Donovan was not as active in this match as he was in most of his Everton appearances. Wish I could find some Match Analysis type stats that might support this, but I did not see him making the types of runs I saw him make for Everton that made me think I'd been wrong about him and his work rate.

3. The US lost their composure after the 2nd goal and started launching long balls that destroyed their ability to mount a decent offensive thrust to get a good shot on goal. Remember Algeria? The final goal started with a long Howard throw to Donovan on the right wing -- POSSESSION!!

We'll never have a chance in the World Cup if we can't be among the best defensive teams in the world. Top flight strikers are somewhat unique in their distribution among countries, and in their ability to perform consistently at a high level. If we get one at some point, it will be a huge bonus, but until then, we'll have to defend well and use teamwork and quicker thinking to be successful at the international level.

 

Could we petition to get in Euros? Most of the players would already be playing in Europe, and the MLS players taken over would want to try and find a club in Europe.

 

I would nto want the US to have played any of Conmebol's teams this time around in order to have to qualify while also having to qualify against Mexico.

You need to spend more time in some of the Andean mountain countries. There are stadiums there that they love to play in for the same reason as Azteca.

 

I'm just saying Copa America would be a lot more exciting for us if the U.S. and Mexico are in it.

It seems Mexico has been in it and so has Japan. JAPAN?!??!? WTF??

If they bring in the Orient then they sure as hell can bring in another American country!

 

Find one. I know several kids who got scholarships to play soccer at a private school. They were thrilled to get a $5000 scholarship that still left the price of that school more than a good state school. Even a $10,000 scholarship at some private schools will still not bring the total amount down to a good state school cost. Again, facts and figures prove you wrong. The fact is very few boys will get a full ride for soccer, they are most definately not common, and even five or ten thousand dollar scholarships may not make the school the cheapest option for your kid. Title IX will not let boys soccer grow in this country unless football and/or basketball are no longer the popular college men sports.

 

Klinsmann is wrong. He may live here but I would bet he has spent very little time on competitive soccer pitches actually meeting players. he is just spouting a commonly held belief. Loads of kids whose parents are most definately not rich are playing soccer in this country. Moreover, I don't know of many in the know parents who really think their son is going to get a soccer scholarship. Maybe some rec leaguer parent, but once you move to a high level of competitive soccer you know the real deal. Anybody think those African teams are loaded with poor players? Nope, but how well did they doo? Any won it all yet? Nope. Does anyone seriously believe all of those European teams are stocked with only poor kids? Nope, they are not.