Less Than Half of all Published Scientists Endorse Global Warming Theory

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Matt in the Hat, Aug 30, 2007.

  1. Roel

    Roel Member

    Jan 15, 2000
    Santa Cruz mountains
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
  2. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's not THE solution yet. But they are becomming one of them.

    First off, there is no true white LED yet. Instead, white LED's happen to just be overdriven blue LED's. From a color rendering perspective, like the ability to light artwork or cosmetics this is a no go.

    Second, LED's cannot produce a focused conical beam similar to a PAR or provide the illumination for an ellipsoidal reflector spot (Theater Fixture). As of right now the only other lamp source other than multiple incandescent froms that has that ability is a high intensity discharge lamp. Of the high intensity discharge lamps, only a metal halide source is comparable to pure white. Trouble with them is that they are incredibly expensive and not dimable, not to mention they produce alot of heat.

    Third, if you think the material in fluorescent lamps are caustic, you should see the nastiness involved in making LED's. No wonder most of the worlds supply comes from China.

    The big problem is that there is a lack of education out ther about the proper use of incandescents. For instance, if you were to use a metalized reflector incandescent source in a fiber optic illuminator you can actually achieve an optimum base light level across a larger area than with any of these other sources. Done correctly, you can achieve a greater lumens per watt per foot ratio than any source other than a metal halide source, for which I have already explained it's limitations.

    But instead of actually learning how to light correctly or finding a professional that does, some members of our government would like to take a major piece of equipment out of comission. This prohibition would effect all sorts of applications, from homes to offices to theaters, TV, movies, medical equipment, etc. All of this, based on unfounded fear of 30' waves crashing into their homes because that's what "An Inconvenient Truth" said would happen.
     
  3. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
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    New York Red Bulls
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    United States
    I think that we as a planet can deal with that. I'm not sure it's okay or not. That's a decision we all have to make through our individual actions. I've got a carbon footprint under 2 tons, I don't own a car and I buy locally farmed groceries. So I sleep well.
     
  4. shwantzme

    shwantzme Member

    Jul 11, 2003
    The Old Dominion
    They don't overdrive the LED. A phosphor coating is applied which filters out the blue.

    with proper lnsing, you can get very close to the conical beam. It's coming , trust me there will be an LED based Source 4 fixture within a couple of years that can even project images (gobos)

    They are dimmable and the LED doesn't produce heat. The electronics do. With proper heat sinking, it can be minmized.
     
  5. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
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    United States
    I've seen both processes but you are correct in how Lumileds does it.

    You know too much. What do you do?
    Anyway while that will be awsome in the future, it does not exist now especially ina pure white. So a ban on incandescent sources without a suitable replacement is premature. But once those come they will be awesome. No need to purchase gel anymore either.


    I was talking about Metal Halide, not LED. I am aware that LED's are dimable.
     
  6. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't have the knowledge of either of you on the subject, but I could swear I've seen reports that a few R&D groups have created white LEDs over the past six months. Not bulbs, but single LEDs.

    I could be wrong, but I keep thinking I saw that somewhere.
     
  7. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
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    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
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    New York Red Bulls
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    United States
    I know that GE has a 3200 and a 2800 Kelvin color temperature LED but it's output is poor. There are plenty of "whites" that have a strong light output but they tend to have a color temp of around 4000 K+.

    For refernce here is a list of color temperatures and what they mean:


    Like I said it's not there yet, but it's getting close.
     
  8. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lighting nerds.

    :D
     
  9. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I suppose we CAN take it as read that there is a document, can we???
     
  10. shwantzme

    shwantzme Member

    Jul 11, 2003
    The Old Dominion
    Osram and Nichia do the same thing.

    I have never heard of the process of overdriving the LED. I guess it is true that you learn something new every day.

    I used to work for a manufacturer of that produces RGB and white light fixtures for the architectural and entertainment/theatrical markets. The white light is also color temperature controllable. They mix warm and cool color temperature diodes in one fixture. As you adjust the intensity between the two you can achieve a CT anywhere between 3000K and 6500K. I want to get back into it, but might have to wait a bit.

    Agreed. The white light is coming soon.

    or replace the very expensive lamp.


    My bad.
     
  11. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It turns out the 'author' is a medical researcher, an endocrinologist to be exact.

    http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686

    'The 928 papers were divided into six categories: explicit endorsement of the consensus position, evaluation of impacts, mitigation proposals, methods, paleoclimate analysis, and rejection of the consensus position. Of all the papers, 75% fell into the first three categories, either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change. Remarkably, none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position.'

    Let's have a look where it's published.

    http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Energy_and_Environment

    'The journal Energy and Environment is a social science journal published by Multi-Science. The journal's editor is Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen, a reader in geography at the University of Hull in England and climate skeptic.

    Energy and Environment is not carried in the ISI listing of peer-reviewed journals. Its peer review process has been widely criticised for allowing the publication of substandard papers [1][2]. Numerous climate skeptics and contrarians have published in the journal and these studies have later been quoted by Republican critics of global warming science such as Senator James Inhofe and Congressman Joe Barton[3].

    People who have published in this journal include Sallie Baliunas, Patrick Michaels, Ross McKitrick, Stephen McIntyre, Ian Castles, Roger Pielke Jr., Willie Soon, Madhav Khandekar and Indur Goklany.
    '

    Maybe that's one way for the skeptics to go... if you can't get the reputable publications to print your stuff, just start a NEW publication :D

    http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journals/esthag-w/2005/aug/policy/pt_skeptics.html/

    'If the manuscripts of climate-change skeptics are rejected by peer-reviewed science journals, they can always send their studies to Energy & Environment. “It’s only we climate skeptics who have to look for little journals and little publishers like mine to even get published,” explains Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen, the journal’s editor.

    According to a search of WorldCat, a database of libraries, the journal is found in only 25 libraries worldwide. And the journal is not included in Journal Citation Reports, which lists the impact factors for the top 6000 peer-reviewed journals.

    The journal remains unknown to most scientists. “I really don’t know what it is,” says Jay Famiglietti, editor-in-chief of Geophysical Research Letters.'


    http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2007/08/classifying_abstracts_on_globa.php

    'This seems likely to be a rerun of Benny Peiser's effort. (Peiser said that 34 of Oreskes' abstracts rejected the consensus. Eventually he downgraded the number to just one.'

    Just ONE!!! LOL You can't say these fellas haven't got a sense of humour, can yer!!! :D

    Great fun!!
     
  12. Pathogen

    Pathogen Member

    Jul 19, 2004
    Like you care.
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They're making my brain hurt. I can barely remember what wattage to buy when I go to Home Depot.
     
  13. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Me too. Hell, I still have to write down which size filter I need for my heat pump. But then, it took me two trips to the store to get the right size roller I needed to fix my sliding glass door Saturday. I'm a pretty pathetic handyman.
     
  14. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
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    United States
    Good. Now based on that, do you believe you have the proper knowledge to make a decent assessment on whuch lighting technologies should be banned. Do you believe that your typical congressman does?

    The industry is moving in a positive direction. But there are certain tasks and certain technologies that cannot be substituted at the moment. Using the blunt hammer of legislation without proper knowledge is an unwise idea.
     
  15. wallacegrommit

    Sep 19, 2005
    I agree. I don't think there's a consensus, however, about what counts as "proper knowledge".
     
  16. striker

    striker Member+

    Aug 4, 1999
    Has the National Academy of Sciences or the National Academy of Engineering (or other prestigeous scientific/engineering organizations) come up with a position?
     
  17. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    But I'd suggest that having to start your own journals because nobody else takes you seriously probably isn't a good sign.
     
  18. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would assume that they would default to the Illuminating Engineering Society of North America who I know has not take an official position yet.
     
  19. John Kevin W. Desk

    John Kevin W. Desk New Member

    Mar 5, 2007
    Instead, we should trust the blunt hammer of industry shills on the take.
     
  20. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What an assinine sentence? Who's on the take?
     
  21. John Kevin W. Desk

    John Kevin W. Desk New Member

    Mar 5, 2007
    For certain, the guy who's trying to publish an article in a fanzine about how scientists don't believe in global warming.

    Not sure about the people who quote such a thing approvingly. Maybe they're on the take, maybe they're just misinformed.
     
  22. Samarkand

    Samarkand Member+

    May 28, 2001
    If you can't discredit, just muddy the waters and misinform; the discrediting can then come later.
     
  23. Naughtius Maximus

    Jul 10, 2001
    Shropshire
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I love the way we start discussing whether the issue of 'Less Than Half of all Published Scientists Endorse Global Warming Theory' and end up talking about fkcving light bulbs :D
     
  24. Pathogen

    Pathogen Member

    Jul 19, 2004
    Like you care.
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yep. I'm the guy that buys three or four different sizes because I can't remember which one I needed. You'd think I'd commit that to memory. Nope. Every time.

    If it's a plumbing project, f**king forget it. My ass will spend more on gas on repeated trips back to the store than I will on the actual job.

    The only thing I'm really good at is getting the exact cable I need at the right size for my electronics. I never screw that up.
     
  25. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What that proves is that if we can go into the depths of the effect of light bulbs, then this whole subject is a lot more complicated than the bumper sticker it has been made out to be.

    That's the reason why I posted the article in the first place. If something will keep people from running blind into a cave regarding global warming then it is important to share it. This whole process is possibly the biggest thing that the world's nations could take on and we have to make sure we are actually conversating, not spouting rhetoric.
     

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