Andrade is an interesting case. If he's good enough to be both a Junior (but with better defense and speed) and a Tigana (but with better dribbling) he would be a super player (Around the same bracket as a Eusebio, I reckon). If he deserves it, I have no issue. I'm making a big review this weekend, in case we do an FM draft in this forum.
Maybe it looks I'm overating him, but I'm trying to modeling in his role as Right Back or Central Midfielder. Some ratings I'd give him: 18 - Technique, Teamwork, Tackling 17 - Pace, Agility, Stamina 16 - Dribbling, Marking, Composure, Passing Downgrading - Anticipation, Crossing, Long Shots Others, more or less as original ratings. btw, ¿Which are the overall ratings for the #1, 10, 50, 100, 200, 500 for example? ¿The overall rating is the sum of each value?
Personally, I don't think I'd put Tigana below 16 for dribbling (not checked what he's been given currently though). It's hard of course to judge, but I guess in some attacking aspects Andrade could be above Tigana though (including finishing I'd guess?).
I didn't see anything about his finishing, but the goals scored in his Wiki. 1921–1923 Bella Vista 71 (7) 1924–1930 Nacional 105 (29) 1931–1935 Peñarol 88 (3) I also read that he played sometimes as a Forward (early years?), so he could have a decent finishing. Due to this, I change to 1st-CM, 2nd-RB. Maybe, when defending his flank/inside chanel, he relied not in aggression or positioning, but more in his speed and tackling to close his side and in his prime being able to create danger in the opponent half. I read, he could change quickly the direction of his moves, also performing acrobatic plays as scissor kicks.
RW & LW Lists: A good number of 21 greats listed for each role. And other very good ones. For drafting purpose, maybe you can move here: - Alexis Sanchez, 1st-RW, 2nd-FW - Oleg Blokhin, 1st-LW, 2nd-FW
Overall rating is a tough one to explain. It's not really a sum. There's a complex calculation behind it, which honestly, I don't fully understand either. What I do know is that each attribute is weighted according to the position. So for a striker, finishing attribute cost a lot but the marking attribute costs almost nothing. The reverse if of course true for a central defender. Using the in-game editor, they automatically calculate the overall ability for the player whenever I make changes to the attributes.
AM & FW Lists: A really stacked list. But I'd make some comments: - Boniek and Szepan, could be moved here. - Maybe Prohaska and Pirlo as 2nd role in AM, being 1st-CM - Overath is named two times, in CM list and in AM list. Suggestions: - Luis Suárez Miramontes, 1st-CM, 2nd-AM - Alain Giresse, AM - Rinaldo Martino, FW - Faas Wilkes, FW - Raimond Braine, 1st-FW, 2nd-CF
CF List: Another stacked list. But I'd make two inclussions: - Gyula Szengeller, 1st-FW, 2nd-CF - René Pontoni as CF
That's an oversight. Thank you! I'll make Prohaska 'accomplished' in the AM role. I don't think I'll do the same for Pirlo. The version of Pirlo we went for is the Milan Pirlo, where he was fully established as a deep-lying playmaker.
Checking Tom's lists for players with >4 points in his Decade resume. Some interesting players not mentioned. - Manuel Seoane, FW - Gyorgy Orth, CM, AM - Josep Samitier, CM, AM - Alex James, CM, AM - Estanislao Basora, RW - Walter Gomez, FW, CF - Julio C.Romero, AM
Main Lateral Defenders Values (what makes him a legend?) Facchetti: +15 (attributes >= 17) 20 – Leadership, natural fitness 19 – Concentration, stamina 18 – Marking, decisions, determination, teamwork, strength R.Carlos: +14 20 – Pace, stamina 19 – Free Kick, Long Shot, work rate, agility 18 – Acceleration, natural fitness Maldini: +12 20 – Leadership, natural fitness 19 – Marking, tackling, determination, positioning 18 – Bravery, concentration Pearce: +12 20 – Aggression, bravery, determination, natural fitness 19 – Leadership 18 – Concentration, work rate Thuram: +11 20 – x 19 – Natural fitness 18 – Work rate, strength D.Santos: +10 20 – Bravery, natural fitness 19 – Determination 18 - Penalty taking, aggression, concentration, decisions, work rate Vogts: +10 20 – Leadership 19 – Marking, bravery, determination 18 - x Janes: +10 20 – x 19 – Determination 18 – Bravery, concentration, work rate Burgnich: +10 20 – x 19 – Strenght 18 – Marking, positioning, work rate, natural fitness Gerets: +9 20 – Natural fitness, stamina 19 – Determination 18 – Long throw, bravery, leadership, work rate Hapgood: +9 20 – x 19 – Determination 18 – Concentration, leadership Pavoni: +9 20 – Leadership 19 – Concentration 18 - Penalty taking, decisions Lahm: +8 20 – Composure 19 – Decisions, determination, natural fitness, stamina 18 – Anticipation, agility Armfield: +8 20 – x 19 – Bravery, determination, natural fitness 18 – Long throw, decisions, leadership, stamina Brehme: +8 20 – x 19 – Crossing 18 – Free Kick, composure Schnellinger: +8 20 – x 19 – x 18 – Anticipation, determination Cole: +8 20 – x 19 – Work rate, acceleration, stamina 18 – Anticipation, determination, pace Cervato: +8 20 – x 19 – Leadership 18 – Long throw Segarra: +8 20 – Determination, leadership 19 – Work rate 18 – Bravery, team work, stamina Neville: +8 20 – x 19 – Long throw, determination 18 – Bravery, team work Krol: +7 20 – Leadership 19 – x 18 – Aggression, team work Camacho: +7 20 – Determination 19 – Bravery, work rate, natural fitness, stamina 18 – x Jusufi: +7 20 – x 19 – Determination, natural fitness 18 – Anticipation, composure, stamina Zanetti: +7 20 – Leadership, stamina 19 – Natural fitness 18 – Bravery, determination Zebec: +7 20 – x 19 – Determination, natural fitness 18 – x Neal: +7 20 – Natural fitness 19 – Leadership 18 – Determination Nilsson,E: +7 20 – Natural fitness 19 – x 18 – Determination, strenght Sansom: +7 20 – x 19 – x 18 – Anticipation, team work, work rate, stamina Irwin: +7 20 – Penalty taking, natural fitness 19 – x 18 – Team work I think are overrated (Pearce, Gerets, Pavoni, Armfield, Segarra & Neville) Underrated is Krol. Other full backs have <6 World Class atributtes. Underrated are Cafú, D.Alves, N.Santos, Cabrini, Junior, Marzolini. Carlos Alberto ?
Main Lateral Defenders Values (what makes him a legend?) Pt.2 N.Santos: +6 20 – x 19 – Natural fitness 18 – Work rate, stamina Cafu: +6 20 – Natural fitness, stamina 19 – Work rate 18 – Leadership Marzolini: +6 20 – x 19 – x 18 – Decisions, work rate Briegel: +6 20 – x 19 – x 18 – Stamina Junior: +5 20 – Natural fitness 19 – Team work, work rate 18 – x D.Alves: +5 20 – x 19 – Natural fitness 18 – Off the ball, work rate Rodriguez Andrade: +5 20 – x 19 – x 18 – Team work, work rate, stamina Amoros: +5 20 – x 19 – x 18 – Determination McGrain: +5 20 – Bravery 19 – x 18 – Determination, leadership Jorginho: +5 20 – x 19 – x 18 – Stamina Alaba: +5 20 – x 19 – Stamina 18 – Natural fitness Gambetta: +5 20 – x 19 – Concentration, determination 18 – Composure, stamina Demyanenko: +5 20 – Stamina 19 – Work rate 18 – x Evra: +5 20 – x 19 – Determination 18 – Acceleration, pace Tassotti: +5 20 – x 19 – Bravery, determination 18 – x Byrne: +5 20 – x 19 – Leadership 18 – Determination Jarni: +5 20 – x 19 – x 18 – Acceleration, pace Heinze: +5 20 – Determination 19 – Bravery 18 – Aggression Cabrini: +4 20 – x 19 – x 18 – Concentration Stankovic: +4 20 – Leadership 19 – Decisions 18 – x Zambrotta: +4 20 – x 19 – Stamina 18 – Aggression, determination, work rate Alba: +4 20 – x 19 – x 18 – Acceleration, stamina Gordillo: +4 20 – x 19 – Bravery, work rate 18 – Stamina Hilario: +4 20 – Natural fitness 19 – Stamina 18 – Pace Kaltz: +3 20 – Natural fitness 19 – x 18 – Penalty taking Panucci: +3 20 – x 19 – x 18 – Work rate Arce: +3 20 – x 19 – Crossing 18 – Free kick Lizarazu: +2 20 – x 19 – x 18 – Stamina Bossis: +2 20 – x 19 – x 18 – x Maicon: +2 20 – x 19 – x 18 – Stamina Marche: +2 20 – x 19 – Determination 18 – Bravery Suurbier: +1 20 – x 19 – x 18 – Stamina Eyzaguirre: +1 20 – x 19 – x 18 – x Leandro: +1 20 – x 19 – x 18 – x Marcelo: +1 20 – x 19 – x 18 – Agility Marinho: +1 20 – x 19 – x 18 – x Battiston: none I think are overrated (Gambetta, Tassotti, Demyanenko, Evra, Heinze, Hilario) Underrated are (Briegel, Cafu, Marzolini,, N.Santos, Kaltz, Cabrini, Battiston, Suurbier, Amoros, Bossis, Leandro, Eyzaguirre).
I think Amoros, Jorginho and Kaltz could all have crossing at 18 or above. Maybe not above for Amoros (even conceivably slightly below), but he is the most two-sided (so his left foot crossing would also be very good). I think Leandro and Lizarazu could be on about 17 for crossing, and Cafu, Neville and Facchetti about 16, to pick out others who should probably be very capable in that attribute. Brehme is already on 19 of course, and even more than Amoros is two-sided (but maybe isn't quite so switchable between both sides conversely; a bit better on the left I think).
Cabrini, Irwin, Jarni and Gordillo also feasible for crossing at 16 or 17 perhaps actually (just like the ones above - I don't mean to put them above Cafu/Neville/Facchetti necessarily). Obviously I didn't check the current values, but am just looking at what msioux typed, and he didn't list the attributes at 17 specifically, so some of these might already be there. I could be wrong, but maybe I lean towards Roberto Carlos's acceleration being among the top ratings, but his pace slightly below (possibly a switch around of the values?). While maybe Cafu can be up towards the top end for pace, with acceleration just about there too (17 and 16 maybe, although that could be a touch high?). If Pearce has a 20 attribute taken away I'd suggest natural fitness going a bit lower, but not much to be fair (in combination with work-rate being high that'd still mean he was an active player though). Battiston could be another at 16 or 17 on crossing feasibly I guess, if we're looking for some top attributes for him (not to say there won't be others - he should be made a very good sweeper/centre-back too of course).
Maybe I'm slightly generous if anything there on crossing in general, but those names would be the ones I'd pick out (obviously Arce too who is already on 19 also). Although I wouldn't rule out Neal, Sansom, Zebec, Zanetti, Zambrotta or Lahm in terms of good to very good crossing ratings either. Seems a bit harsh to question players inclusions, but maybe I'm a bit surprised to see Heinze included. I know everyone has players they particularly rate though. I didn't check the database but I'm thinking it's the Argentine who played for Man Utd, rather than the Dane Heintze (who maybe I'd be more inclined to think could merit a place, although not an automatic choice in my mind either). It's a bit different with Evra who I suppose I'd not put in myself either, but it's a less surprising choice. I don't think we should be quibbling too much about players included/excluded though - I guess for example I'd put in Petrescu and Gemmell myself among side-backs but those might be equally a surprising choice and a debated choice according to others, so within reason the people designing the database should have the final say on inclusions as well as control over ratings but with an open ear/eye in terms of adjustments (which is how PoetGooner is doing it by asking for advice etc),
Oh, I missed Dani Alves when listing the crossing candidates obviously! Maybe McGrain is also worth considering or investigating, or Marzolini. I think Briegel's stamina might even be under-rated at 18 potentially (considering not giving current players the inherant advantages as mentioned by PoetGooner), but it's in the right ballpark anyway of course. Maybe a 17+ off the ball rating for Junior would be worth considering, in terms of how that would play out with raids down the left. I guess his positioning wouldn't be particularly great, so that might give the effect of lots of good runs forward to receive passes and sometimes not being quick back into his defensive slot?
Holy shit, thanks a lot for the input guys! We're doing the big update this weekend, and all should be ready by Monday. I truly appreciate all your help. @PDG1978 Should we start a signup thread for the FM Draft on Monday? I will create a separate BigSoccer database so that we can make any change we want on it, without affecting the database my friends and I use (and save me from having to consult with them on any further changes as well).
Yeah, sounds good. I guess you might be able to make an Excel spreadsheet for the Big Soccer one even too (for ease of viewing quickly)? I should add I didn't really intend to leave out Carlos Alberto's name when discussing crossing, and I think Nilton Santos might also be worth a mention. Possibly I'd now have mentioned all who might IMO (or to the best of my knowledge might be a good way of putting it) get into the teens (or well into them) on that attribute, but some of the others might be close reasonably too.
Would it require a hyperlink to the actual profile page of the players? Or were you thinking just a comprehensive list of every player available to be picked?
I guess I was thinking of a tab for goalies/defenders/midfielders/forwards and columns for every attribute with a filter available.
Ok mate, no probs. Yeah I guess it might save time for viewers/editors who want to participate but you're right it'd do the opposite for you on the flip side for sure!