Legends Database

I don't think dribbling was a (main) strength of him (WvH). He was also too slow for that, although over 100 meters he was surprisingly fast! What he could do well was shielding the ball and then with his strong balance and fine control move himself out of situations. The PES game would call that 'tactical dribble'. For his type of midfielder he was an above average scorer; at European level he has 20 goals in 49 games with I think one penalty.

I think his decision making was the best of that era, and also the direct eras after that. I don't think it was as constant, repetitive and reliable as Xavi but it was also a very different period.

 

This might help

 

Tricky, in Cruyff's first 3 actions alone he stays on the ball too long. In the third Costas is so free ahead of him. Bad decisions. Football is about momentum. Either create something or play quickly.
I'd say that Cruijff may easily reach a 200 total skill points but consistency, decisions and freekicks are his lowest.

In contrast

Any bad decisions here?

 

Just as with Baresi and marking (and visions, and decisions) I see that a bit different. What he does here is drawing opponents to him, not overdoing the dribbling, and then play the ball.

If you play with less able team mates (and Neeskens didn't play, too) then this is the better course of action. Those will have more space and time to process.

I think everyone who has played themselves on their own level, will recognize that. See what Xavi says here.

Also the Costas scene (who was never a starter) is more intelligent than it might look since it is made sure that this slow player is free when receiving the ball. Playing the ball early, exactly into the run of the tracking opponent, is counterproductive in this instance.

As I said, no one is perfect and if '20 = almost perfect' then not sure whether anyone should have it. But to say that 'decisions' is one of his lowest attributes - I strongly disagree with that. There are even some tangible facts hinting into that direction (e.g. number of European games played while spending 3.5 years in USA; the winning percentage with/without; the various unbeaten streaks for NLD, Ajax and FCB).

Remember here that in the 2nd half of his career he didn't score a lot, but did assist an enormous amount. For that type of statistical profile (in a handful seasons twice as many assists as goals) it is highly unlikely that the 'decisions' are particularly weak.

Yes I think Xavi (and Guardiola) were more constant, reliable and repetitive in their decision making. In the mid-1990s (1995) Cruijff himself famously said that Guardiola and Bergkamp were each in their own way the smartest players he had coached.

But I also think there are better matches to contrast this with, such as Sweden 1974, England 1977, East Germany 1974 etcetera. Even then the playing style is not totally the same, as OPTA says: "Cruyff had more successful dribbles in the 1974 World Cup (34) than any other player. This included his famous 'Cruyff turn' against Sweden. In the 1974 World Cup, Cruyff was also the player who created the most chances (36) and completed the most passes in the final third of the pitch (136). Cruyff scored more goals as captain of the Dutch national team than any other player (23)."

It is more difficult, maybe impossible given fouling etc., to be that repetitive in the final third.

Among the (pure) attackers, it might be true Pelé deserves a 20 rating for decisions, if anyone deserves that. However, some famous moments like that Czechoslovakia halfway attempt were not spontaneous, but carefully rehearsed by the excellent preparation. That might appear as fantastic decision making, but the decision was already made before the match, so to speak. But I agree that 20 is an option for post-1960/post-1961 Pelé.

 

I think this Cruyff game vs Sweden would be a really good one for decisions:


I suppose due to different role/capabilities, Guardiola plays in a very different way overall but maybe at times Pep the manager would think Pep the player played too many lofted passes that lost possession, while likewise for Johan the manager - thinking in some games in his career (not the above) that he over-dribbled or something.

 

I posted that before seeing Puck's post. I think Pele's creative instincts were great, and his sense of how to fool the opponents etc, but maybe I err on the side of lower than the best decisions rating due to the fact he sometimes seemed a bit lax or wasteful with possession (although full games we can see are very limited for him - Mexico in 1962 shows it though despite it also showing his huge promise for a full tournament).

 

Even he didn't played that good as in the Group Phase, it could be seen some characteristics of him.

For example, he was a master playing fast 1-2 combinations, with every part of his feet and moving the ball forward, not to the sides, like tiki-taka.

That's why I think: Free Kick, Technique, Flair, First Touch and Finishing high-values will describe him very well.

 

I didn't have a really extensive look at the database yet, but one thing I can say is that Victor Rodriguez Andrade should really be a side-back (both sides). I think msioux will be able to confirm and expand on that probably.

Tom Finney, another old player, probably should have higher crossing I believe. Maybe determination not quite as high as it is currently I'd think. I also think AM (C) as a position might be good, although maybe no need to remove striker (although I think when he played centre-forward late in his career it was as somewhat of a false 9 type, and he'd shown able to play well at inside forward earlier in his career).

 

Yeah, I see what you mean with that Mexico game. Garrincha had that even (a lot) more, to lose the ball very often, and then hoping it pays off (his end product in 1962 was very much an outlier ofc).

Among defenders maybe Scirea an option for 20 in decisions, concentration etc.? Sure he didn't rely a lot on his athleticism.

 

Maybe positioning for Scirea too? With a preferred move indicating he will look to bring the ball out from the back though maybe if possible (although that is down to managers instructions too I guess), so that he might be missing from the defence at times, but usually in a clever position when he is present?

 

Agreed that Johan does very well for decisions here. I see correlation with his age (the older, the worse his decisions). If his crossing had been up a few points, it would have been goals galore against Sweden. Funny his crosses with the outside of the boot are better. Also the control at the 7 minute mark is impressive.

 

Yeah, I felt that when something broke down it was a slightly imprecise kick or just good defending to block or tackle him (or a foul), not bad decisions. Generally he was technically very good and precise too though, and I feel his crosses provided take-able chances. Perhaps two shots could be deemed sub-optimal decisions if being picky, but maybe with a great shot he could have scored the first time and then late on maybe there wasn't much on and he thought it was worth a shot. His brain and body both seemed to act very sharply and smoothly in that game in general I'd say, resulting in good decisions and slick play throughout the game. The timing of his passes was great at times I think, helping options he took to be successful and progressive (except it was 0-0 lol!).

 

Do you understand/see what I mean with the other game?

 

Stamina 20 must be prime Kante?

 

The Aston Villa one? I'd have to check again and it might be after the weekend even now, as although I was very familiar with his Sweden performance (hence it was my first port of call) I still needed to check that excellent Vimeo video too (obviously one version used to be on Youtube) to make a call on just how good his decisions seemed to be and to make the summary posted in reply to annoyedbyneedoflogin. I have seen the Villa video before though too.

 

Yeah some (Beckenbauer, Baresi, Blanc I think, maybe Scirea too indeed although maybe just a decent dribbling attribute would suffice or a 'likes to run with ball' if that is a separate general preference) can have both those but the brings ball out of defence is a great and realistic addition I think.

Some (Moore, Koeman, Rijkaard for when used as CB, perhaps Krol although he wasn't averse to a dribble) would be very well suited to brings ball out of defence without the runs through centre preference, as as you say the latter doesn't suit all of the ball-playing liberos (or defensive wing-half types - (or attacking centre-back types in effect) - like Moore).

 

That makes no sense, and it contradicts the available video evidence from around the same time (1977-1979).
Here in 1983-84 (aged 36-37) he's playing against Liverpool, Standard Liege (CWC finalist), Manchester United, Tottenham Hotspur, AS Roma. Some real top teams. At the age of 37 he scored a fine individual goal against the later UEFA Cup winner.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x23ze7c

Bad decisions? And if so, what are the strengths then?

Anyway, I'm fed up with the (subconscious) modern day internet revisionism and rating the first touch/technique at 17 is one example in a long line of such examples (not only just concerning the players, but also the leagues). Meanwhile, other (lazier) legends receive I don't know how many free passes even if their production against top teams (even in friendlies) is rather meh, and they don't play in a top league either.

In fact, I'll take a break for a while now. It has also no real purpose to be annoyed for too many minutes on Cambridge Analatica type of brainwash bureaus (employed in football/sports too, for sure) that are beyond your control.

 

Of the Ballon d'Or winners I'd suggest 20 stamina for Matthaus (which you have done) and also prime Nedved perhaps.

 

Yeah I mean that video. I know it is not done intentional, yes.

As last remark: one for shooting power on max level is Roberto Carlos.

 

OK

 

I wasn't sure if I'd get the time before Monday to have a proper look and consider things, but while I didn't start to study the interesting new thread about players seasons yet for example, I did look at this video just now. My view would to be fair be that his decision making was definitely pretty good overall, including obviously for the goal (choosing a good time to take the shot after delaying it to work an opening - ok maybe normal play rather than genius on that occasion, but still a positive decision wise) and also the chance he fashions for himself where he shoots just wide - whether it might be suggested he could have aimed for the top corner with the shot is a possibility I suppose but again the delaying of the shot was intelligent. On some occasions letting the ball run into space and suchlike would count as good decisions (I suppose going back to Pele that would be a definite factor for him although maybe some tricks and moves involving not touching the ball would come under vision/flair/creativity). I think the pitch not being perfect, and Cruyff's fitness the same, makes it harder to seem completely fluent or play as quickly as would be ideal at times, and it's also true I think that when something doesn't come off then it's not because it was impossible that it could, so not every loss of possession would be due to a bad decision per se.

Without looking at it now with this in mind, the England game did come to mind from 1977 for me too, and I can understand why you say East Germany in 1974 (while overall you don't see it ofc as his second best display of the WC or something, and maybe you don't necessarily see the Sweden one as the best). I'm thinking the Real Madrid away performance in 73/74 would also be very good for decisions. Probably Italy at home in 1974 too, although maybe his skills and fluency were the most impressive things there, opening up multiple 'good' options, or sometimes one obvious 'good' option, quite often.