The main reason? I would say that the development of U.S. soccer players would have been a little lower on the founders' list, following: 1) to bring 1st Division soccer back to the U.S. and 2) to (eventually) make money
Jim, you need to cut down on your baked beans and bacon consumption. It is causing a bunch of hot air to come from your direction. I see this as a good thing. You have no facts to back up most of what you said. You have no idea how much Landon is being paid, you have no idea where the money is coming from, you have no idea what type of deal MLS/Bayer have worked out for 2 years from now, none of us have any idea of how Landon will develop over these 2 years, you have no idea of how this decision will affect any youth player in the future on their destination ...
you mean it wasn't a condition on getting world cup '94?? wow, learn something new every day and not to mention that i thought mls was a business... nope, their job is to lose money yet develop american talent damn, i was so blind thanks for setting that straight for me
i'm somewhat amazed that people have a problem with providing facts and dismissing them as not fact especially reasonable posters, people i never would have thought would have gotten entrapped in blindly following something sadly, i was wrong it's even funnier when people are telling me that i am the problem, and although i do realize i'm stirring the pot, i'm not the burner turned on beneath the pot i've provided facts (that can't be disputed), yet i've been told i haven't provided fact... i have discussed this issue in a manner to look at the whole, yet people continually throw their blind obsession of anything that might have been construed as a knock on donovan as having to be completely wrong i'm one of the few people actually looking at the whole, everyone sees donovan's mug here and believes nothing could possibly be wrong segroves is simply doing the same thing he does with mcbride, people are blindly following so he will provide some much needed counterbalance... i'm quite sure he would love to see mcbride and donovan do incredibly well at everything (pretty sure all of us do) me? i'm counting 0,1,2,3... but people are telling me i'm wrong and that counting goes 1,2,3,4... both methods are correct, but saying that the first method is wrong is not correct
Jim, these are the facts I asked for. I do not see them anywhere. You do not know if MLS, Nike, or some other group is paying this amount of money and you do not know what the amount of money is. You do not know how much money they have to pay other players and how Landon's salary affect this. You do not know that MLS is paying his extra salary. This has often been paid by sponsors for other players. You do not know if Landon is a once in a lifetime player. He sure played pretty well in the WC and is capable of being that. You do not know that other players will look to him as an influence. Maybe they will look to Reyna, JOB, ... as their influence. You do not know where he will develop faster. Only time will tell that. You have posted some "theories", not facts. You may be proven correct in the end but you are not seeing both sides of the story.
I'm a Fire fan dammit Landon Donovan blows in MLS. Landon Donovan would blow in Germany as well. Thus ends all comment I have on the matter.
Jim - What facts have you provided? Things like "MLS doesn't own him and therefore people are going to look down on MLS"? That doesn't qualify as fact in my book, especially when most of us have read that it's a complex deal that pays MLS when/if LD returns to Germany. Technically, MLS may not own him (and what non-BigSoccer fans out there are going to be aware of/give a rats ass about this fact?), but it's not that simple. Gazidis has said it may be a break even deal for MLS. Sure, he may be lying to save face, I guess, but the "fact" is, it's bad karma to jump to a bunch of catastrophic conclusions with so little evidence. BTW - not all of us are Segroves/Devout MLS sheep extremes.
Fair enough, but remember, the discussion revolved around the 2 games to end the season. True, but absent better objective information, it's all I had.
the money coming from mls was pretty much fact, it was posted with many questions on how it all worked out (exact numbers and all that) it has been stated that mls is paying his salary and that they are paying a fee to bayer... both facts yes, sheer number of people playing, the vast improvements of moving them along to the next level and making sure they get seen will be producing players with more ability very soon... i'm not going to go the next 15 years and not see an american player better than donovan currently is... hell, i would imagine that friedel (and others) proves that right now... i suppose you can call that not fact, but it would be taken in the same context as evolution not being a fact... sure, it hasn't yet been proven so that it is fact, but for all intents and practical purposes... it is sheer marketing of landon over reyna and job will mean they will not be looked at it the same manner... people won't see them, kinda like how tab has gotten hosed in that area faster might be the incorrect term, developing further would not be however it's one of the oldest adages... to be the best, you beat the best... and it's pretty much known (although a few people have actually suggested otherwise) that mls is not the best it is good, and it's getting better all the time, and yes, donovan being in the league (next year) will make mls better (next year)... it's simply my very strong belief that it slows down the evolutionary process of the increasing quality of our game... it establishes a bad precedent for our young players, it rips the euro game as being something americans shouldn't try, and it takes money that could be used to develop and promote players now... pushing mls farther than one man can do with his play... and it backs the perception that u.s. soccer players in europe cannot be promoted, despite the fact that this is proven wrong in other sports (all the time) and you failed to discuss the strongest, most important information... it takes away spots, it takes away money from younger players, it slows down the process of discovering and signing the prospects he's not a prospect, it's known he can play... so he should be developing that ability to it's furthest i'm not saying he will be terrible come the next world cup (or even wcq), he could quite possibly kick ass again... i think it will hinder his ability to get to his peak level and that it will slow down and hinder others from every getting close and leagues and teams are only as good as their worst player
Jim, it takes away 1 spot. That is all. I think we wil do OK with "wasting" one spot on the player who could be our top forward in the 2006 WC. And I see no facts on the salary. One place reported as 350k or so. How much is Nike paying, how much is MLS paying, is an other party paying some??? Those are the facts that have not been provided. It is also a fact that MLS will share the transfer fee if you are taking the fee to Bayer as a fact. JOB has progressed in Holland, surely not the best league in the world, Pablo M has progressed in MSL, surely not the best league in the world, Reyna progressed in Scotland, surely not the best league in the world, there is not a BEST way to improve. Landon may progress at his best rate in MLS. Time will tell and MLS has decided to take a chance on 2 more years. Sorry but I do not buy your argument that this is a bad deal for MLS and Landon. It is what some key people want right now and in two years we will know a bit more about those decisions.
Where did you see the fee amount????? ("The money coming from MLS...") I hope you don't think Landon isn't worth the reported $350K salary. That'd be irrational. The question of whether or not this is a good deal financially depends on the (to my knowledge unreported) loan fee. Unless you know the loan fee, you need to back down on this part of your argument. NOTE: I'm gonna feel pretty stupid right now if jim pulls out a number from a verified source. This is so counterintuitive...you're saying getting rid of great players speeds up the league. Let me ask you this...will Bocanegra improve more marking Landon, or marking Eskandarian? The answer is obvious, and in my mind, a very, very powerful counterargument. Can you name an American athlete playing (primarily) overseas who is promoted? I can't. Unless you can, then no, this hasn't been proven wrong in other sports. I couldn't name one WFL player. I could name a couple of Yanks playing in the Lithuanian basketball league, but that's just because the N&O had a recent article about former rivals Ed Cota and Chris Carrawell playing on the same team. It's going back many years, but even when Danny Ferry snubbed the Clippers and played in Italy, he didn't get any endorsements here in the US. You write this about retaining a guy who just turned 20. Beasley is older, right? Why doesn't the league get rid of him? I'm guessing your answer will mention that Landon is more valued. I'm not sure this is relevant. Beasley could get a gig somewhere in Europe, I'm positive. Further, you're ignoring the most basic reason for a sports signing...the Quakes believe Landon will help them win games. You're completely ignoring this as a factor. And why this fixation on Landon? You're a Fire fan; should MLS pimp Bocanegra, Wolff, Razov, Thornton, etc.? Those guys can all get jobs somewhere in Europe, I'm sure. Their own wishes and desires be damned, lest you be accused of hypocrisy. Why isn't just as true that Beasley is holding back some younger player, and retarding his own career growth, yadda yadda yadda? I've made this point elsewhere, but it fits here too. I don't know about next season...he'll get more Nats action, he should get a chance to develop leadership ability, and it's not certain he'll be an 80-90 minute player at Leverkusen. I don't see how anyone can say with certainty that next season here means Landon will be a better or worse player in 2009. There are points on both sides of the ledger. But the 2nd year of the deal...I don't see how that helps Landon as a player. But it's his life. So keeping Landon kicks the worst player out of the league. Good point in favor of the signing.
To show that you're the best, you have to beat the best. You can become the best in a lot of ways. Playing the best fairly often helps. Playing with very good players all the time in a context where you can develop mentally is extremely important. Yours, though not Arena's. There's no accounting for your denying in the Arena thread what you've said very clearly here, your strong belief that Landon will not (insert your favorite meissenism here -- evolve, develop, grow, be the best) by playing in MLS. Arena is contradicting you in very precise terms. He is saying that many top American players will develop more quickly in MLS. You're simply out of step with anyone who knows anything about player development.
seriously honestly how did arena contradict anything i said? did he not, in fact, reinforce the things that i have said?
I don't think superdave is a Quakes fan, so saying "you were thoroughly outplayed" to him doesn't make much sense. I was at all five of the LA-SJ games last year (including the Open Cup quarterfinal, won by LA 1-0 in overtime on yet another kitten-killer by Ruiz). (Or six, if you include the preseason game in Santa Barbara, won by LA 2-1 on... a late Ruiz goal.) The only game that was not decided by a late Carlos Ruiz goal was the SJ win on July 7. (Baby Jesus scored the only goal in that game.) On July 4, LA won 2-1 (two from Ruiz, the game-winner in the 87th minute). This was probably the least close of the five games as LA actually controlled the game. On September 14, LA won 1-0 on a Ruiz stoppage time goal which many Quakes fans believe should have been called back for offside. On September 21, LA won 1-0 on a Ruiz PK in stoppage time. It was a fantastic game, and Hartman played out of his skull, saving a PK in the first half and making tremendous saves throughout the game. LA was most definitely the better team last year. Did LA thoroughly outplay the Quakes? If your definition includes "hold them to a draw until their defense gets tired and then score one goal late" then yes, LA thoroughly outplayed SJ last year.
Landon who? If we want the general public to show up in droves, cut a deal with the Williams sisters - and let them design their own unis. We soccer fans love the guy; he's one of the few Amis known abroad, aside from Freidel, Keller, and Reyna. But the circle of soccer fans here is still small and tight. The average American isn't going to show up for him. I hope a few Euro-types will, just to see what BL sees in him. As for Sports Center and the public in general, the last World Cup is ancient history in a country that could care less about current events, let alone something that happened last year. It's December in a long post-season. I just may kick a Santa Claus on my way home to hang myself.
I think the Landon should go to Europe brigade pretty much sees Landon already kicking arse and taking names at the MLS level, hence needing a new challenge. I don't believe anyone would argue with his return to the states back when he was 18---that definitely helped him develop quicker.
What? Segroves is just joking about how his potential's overestimated. Jmeissen thinks that his marketing potential here is overestimated. I think that he's got mad skillz and the potential to be one of the game's greatest players WORLDWIDE. Therefore, he should be kicking balls and trying to play with them, because that's what the best do--play with and compete against the best. And most of the 'go to Europe' radical contingent thinks that he's maxed out here as a player. The 'stay here' conservatives think he can develop more stateside.
i don't think any of the mls national teamers played too hot after the world cup exhaustion from a long year they should pretty much all be set for this year, and with the mls season lengthened out for the competitions and what not, it hopefully won't be as taxing on them
must have been that beating he took in the mexico game, he forgot that he had been playing for a long while
I made it to three of the five, and was watching the games from a GaLAxy-fan perspective. I saw essentially the same things that Bill saw - two teams that were very evenly matched and a series of games that could have gone either way. I never got the sense that LA was overpowering or could relax for a minute, so "outplayed" looks to me to be an exaggeration more suited to the rivalries forum.