Kubala, Kocsis and Czibor

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Puskas 1988, Nov 2, 2015.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #26 PuckVanHeel, Nov 11, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2015
    I agree a 1956 distribution is very well possible for other years, with one of them moved to the podium or number one. What is less sure though is "domination".
    But you can't transfer it literally to 1952 because 1956 is littered by sympathy votes, with a fitting winner (I see it's already expanded here). It wasn't a great year as you say and also the Honved World Tour saw mixed results against the Italian and Spanish teams. Some wins, some losses. Good results but not dominant. So yeah, the nuance is between "domination" and a distribution like 1956.

    I think it's difficult to tell. Yes, in 1952 they were (outside the Olympics) "beating the hell out" of East Germany, Poland, Finland, Czechoslovakia (5-0 win on home soil). But not USSR (1-1 and 1-2 loss) and Rumania (2-1 win). Over here their fame really exploded in 1953 (some months before the England game, around or after the Italy match) and 1954. I'm dead serious about this.
    In 1952, outside of the truncated Olympics, they didn't play against a country inside the top 23 of the Elo rankings. For reference the results against top 20 teams in 1948, 1949, 1950 and 1951.

    1948: Austria (#13) vs Hungary 3-2. Hungary vs Czechoslovakia (#16) 2-1. Hungary vs Austria (#15) 2-1.
    1949: Czechoslovakia (#18) vs Hungary 5-2. Hungary vs Austria (#18) 6-1 (hattrick Puskas). Hungary vs Italy (#2) 1-1. Sweden (#5) vs Hungary 2-2. Austria (#16) vs Hungary 3-4. Hungary vs Sweden (#5) 5-0 (Sweden played this time with 'real' amateurs).
    1950: Hungary vs Czechoslovakia (#20) 5-0. Austria (#13) vs Hungary 5-3. Hungary vs Austria (#14) 4-3.
    1951: none
    1952: none (outside Olympics)

    Honved was domestically absolutely the strongest, with Kocsis scoring 36 goals, Puskas 22 (was default PK taker), Budai 14. It needs further investigation but was 1952 one of their strongest years or the strongest? It's for various reasons difficult to say whether Puskas matched in 1952 his 'major' status (for whole career? no or very little doubts).
    Which noteworthy friendlies or international competition did Honved play in 1952? What I can see is 3-1 win against Wacker Wien (2 goals Kocsis, 1 goal Horvath). 4-2 win against Wacker Wien (2 goals Kocsis, 2 goals Puskas with 1PK). 7-2 win against Austria Wien (2 goals Bozsik, 1 goal Puskas, 3 goals Kocsis, 1 goal Babolcsay). 4-3 win against Austria Wien (2 Kocsis, 1 Puskas, 1 Horvath). Plus maybe a 2-2 and 1-1 game vs Dukla Prague and a 1-1 match vs Plzen (Komlossy, Budai, Horvath as scorers).
    I've checked this with the Honved website and the Puskas + Kocsis game lists but maybe you know more?
     
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  2. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
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  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Just for info (not that it says much), this link references to Real Madrid and AC Milan as possible alternative teams for 1954 (on 14/12/1954 AC Milan thrashed West Ham with 6-0).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverhampton_Wanderers_F.C._v_Budapest_Honvéd_FC

    It needs to be added that Honved won two months earlier with 5-3 in Brussels against West Bromwich Albion (2 goals Czibor, Puskas, Szovjak, Kocsis) who were the runners-up of the 1953-54 First Division. In between their only international friendly if I'm not mistaken (at least the only one recognized on the Honved website) was against Partizan Belgrade, which they lost with 3-2 (Kocsis, Machos goalscorers).

    Wolverhampton Wanderers was the winner of 1953-54. The "champions of world" comment by the manager had a certain context as RoyOfTheRovers once said.
    "The bolded part is mostly "the righteous fire of the freed workers will sweep aside the Imperialist West" Soviet sporting rhetoric of the era IMHO.
    We in Britain got a load of this from Honved's "friendly" tour here in '54. That was a big factor in Stan Cullis' comment to the press that Wolves were the top club team in Europe after they defeated Honved 3-2. But, of course, that part always gets left out of the story...
    [...]
    [Hungary and the Soviets sent their teams to the Olympics under what was known as "shamateur" status in that era...]
    "

    AC Milan vs Honved:

    29/06/1955 (Milan): AC Milan vs Honved 3-2 (own goal Milan, Czibor, Ricagni, Soerensen, Schiaffino)
    08/12/1956 (Milan): AC Milan vs Honved 1-2 (penalty Liedholm, penalty Puskas, Puskas)

    Real Madrid vs Honved:

    29/11/1956 (Madrid): Real Madrid vs Honved 5-5
    ----
    04/06/1950 (Madrid): Real Madrid vs Hungaria FC 4-2 (match against defectors from communism/socialism incl. Kubala and Hungarian Serie A players)

    Real Madrid vs AC Milan:

    04/05/1949 (Madrid): Real Madrid vs AC Milan 1-0 (with Nordahl)
    ??/??/1949 (Milan): AC Milan vs Real Madrid 0-1 (played at beginning of 1949-50 season)
    19/04/1956 (Madrid): Real Madrid vs AC Milan 4-2 [EC semi final]
    01/05/1956 (Milan): AC Milan vs Real Madrid 2-1 [EC semi final]
    20/06/1957 (Madrid): Real Madrid vs AC Milan 5-1 [Latin Cup semi final]
    28/05/1958 (Brussels): Real Madrid vs AC Milan 3-2 aet [EC final]
    29/08/1959 (Madrid): Real Madrid vs AC Milan 6-3
     
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  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    So to summarize; I think it becomes a bit easier to tell for the 1953-1956 years given the competitions played in and the opposition (almost automatically accompanied by better coverage). Both in level and variation at club and NT level (friendlies against West European clubs etc.). See also the listed results against top NTs above. Even then there are contextual circumstances that make it difficult.
    I stand open for factual corrections or additions.
     
  5. Puskas 1988

    Puskas 1988 Member

    Dec 9, 2014
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Very good, and thanks for all the material guys. Later this evening or tomorrow I'll watch all the links and reply more properly ;)
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Interesting book (that I read many years ago): Scoring for Britain by Peter Beck. As late as 1937 the English FA (by mister Pickford) rejected the World Cup or a similar competition as "recognized battleground of national football abroad." Gives insight into which invitations they accepted (on which conditions, or no conditions) and which they rejected. Throughout the 1920s they declined invitations of Austria, Germany, Hungary, Italy, Spain, Switzerland and even the Ireland Republic.
    https://books.google.nl/books?id=wd...or britain&hl=nl&pg=PA131#v=onepage&q&f=false
    Interesting book.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_football_team_results_(1900–29)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_football_team_results_(1930–59)
     
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  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Here are the most useful ones I think. Maybe it's interesting to fish out all those club friendlies (though not all had the same 'status' perse).
    http://www.honvedfc.hu/bajnoki-evek?season=57
    http://www.puskas.com/en/biography.html
    http://people.ufpr.br/~mmsabino/sstatistics/puskas.html
    http://people.ufpr.br/~mmsabino/sstatistics/czibor.html
    http://people.ufpr.br/~mmsabino/sstatistics/kocsis.html
     
  8. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    My resume of the Marca rankings, on Kubala:
    * 1957/58 - Kubala - top 5 - (21 g, IF)
    * 1958/59 - Kubala - top 20 - (20 g., IF)
    * 1959/60 - Kubala - n.r - (12 games, performing as a top-10)
    * 1960/61 - Kubala - n.r - (13 games, performing as a top-3)
    * 1961/62 - Kubala - retired
    * 1962/63 - Kubala - retired
    * 1963/64 - Kubala - top 10 - (29 g., IF or CF)
     

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