Once again, the EPL is NOTHING like the NFL with its salary cap. It is more analagous with MLB where long term success requires OUTSPENDING other teams. Has Kraft ever demonstrated a willingness to pour money into a chase for a championship (in the NFL the salary cap makes that impossible)? He's no fool and is in this business for profit not love or pride (exactly like J Jacobs). Sure he might make a killing buying Liverpool. The EPL is not at all in good shape, many teams are on the verge of failure and most are not competitive, much like MLB. Kraft is probably savy enough to recognize that the long term solution to the EPL's problems will eventually result in salary caps and anyone owning a team when that happens will see their investment appreciate quickly. His track record with the Revs indicates he is content to take an approach that minimizes cost and wait things out. The same approach will make him money in the EPL, but is hardly the receipe for team success. Both Liverpool and the Revs would be better off if (and that's a BIG IF) a more passionate owner could be found. Alas, beggars can't be choosers and even I admit Kraft is better than nothing. Still it rings pathetic when Rev fans are proud of their owner because of the Patriot's success while their own team withers away.
Idiot Wind, I too wish the Krafts put more effort into the Revs. I though appreciate Kraft as the owner of the Patriots and he is, in my opinion, one of the best owners in professional sports today. Yes your not wrong when you say he doesn't have to over spend to contend, since everybody is pretty much on an equal playing field due to the salary cap. But they're creative enough to work within the system to find ways to consistently make them competitive. I would argue its harder to stay on top like the Pats have, just because it is an equal playing field. Could you imagine if there was no salary cap how much more potent of a team the Pats could field. I still think Kraft can build the Revs into a contender and create more publicity for the team. I also feel that they should build their own S.S.S. and maybe that might show the Rev Faithful that they are committed to soccer in this area. Regardless of how people might perceive the Krafts, I believe he is still one of the best owners in this league. If he should acquire Liverpool, maybe his outlook on soccer will change and might be willing to put more money into our Revs.
It's not a question about pride, it's a pragmatic understanding that Kraft takes up investments in a variety of holdings for a variety of different reasons, and it's hardly pathetic to appreciate the unique conditions relative to each in terms of investor interest and the specific business approach to each. The motivation behind Kraft investing in the Patriots is not the same motivation that led him to invest in the Revolution, period. That being said, his motivations for (potentially) investing in Liverpool are probably different than his motivations for investing in the Patriots and/or the Revolution, but from an investment and business standpoint, the separation between Liverpool and the Patriots is far less than it is between the Revolution and Liverpool. Looking at the composition of the L4 consortium, you have three facets to it: 1. Mike Jefferies and Stuart Ford are the heart of the bid. They're both Mersyside natives and dyed-in-the-woll Liverpool supporters. The club is their passion, and they seem to have some $$$ resources of their own to put towards their bid. 2. The soul of the bid has been rumored to be well-known, former Liverpool player, possible Kenny Dalglish. He's an Anfield hero both as a player and manager, took Blackburn from the 2nd Division to the Premiership title in 1995, and has background in the front office having served as Director of Football Operations at Celtic. There's been suggestion that, if he is indeed the former player in question, that he'd retain some senior front office position with the club. 3. The financiers of the deal would seemingly be the Krafts. As has been indicated previously, investment in a club like Liverpool makes a fair bit of sense at the moment when understanding their current financial situation, the history and nature of the club, a large supporters base, and a treemendous amount of potential, much of it wrapped up in a new stadium effort. With the right business approach and with the right amount of cash, Kraft could diversify his portfolio of holdings, while possibly helping Liverpool achieve a much greater level of success both domestically, and abroad. Understanding what he's done with the Patriots, and how successful he's been with an approach that defies the status quo, and seeing how Liverpool's current situation may be compatible with that, then the potential exists for a great deal of success. Then again, there would be a fair amount of risk involved, and things could turn sour; that's a potential of any investment. Look, I'd love to see Kraft put more into the Revolution as a franchise. I'd love to see him learn to love the Revolution much the same way as he learned to love the Patriots. It's not something you can force, and it'll be entirely organic, but the Patriots are "his team." The Revolution, may be one of his teams, that's not the same thing. If anyone reads back through the number of quotes offered by both Robert and Jonathan Kraft through the years when talking about their decision to invest in MLS and the Revolution, more than anything it's explained not in terms of cultivating a franchise with an eye towards winning championships, but as a vehicle to develop the game here in New England. The Revolution are part of that, visits by the U.S. National Teams are part of that, as are the visits of top international clubs for international friendlies. The following is a quote from Robert Kraft back in October of 1995 when the name of the New England franchise of MLS was revealed, the source being a Providence Journal article written by Doug Chapman: "When we bought the stadium in '88, our objectivewas to make it a family entertainment center," said Kraft. "I didn't realize until we had the World Cup here what a powerful force soccer is. I believe it is the game of the future in the U.S., and may turn out to be the best investment that we evermade... This sport represents an opportunity to bring people together in this country," Kraft continued. "Young people of both genders and from all ethnic backgrounds play it. What my family really likes about soccer is that it's a game played byyoung boys and girls, and is coached by fathers and mothers." The Krafts are going put whatever they feel is necessary to get the desired return on their investment in the Revolution, no matter if fans feel there exists an absence of true passion or immediate interest relative to it. The krafts are going to put whatever they feel is necessary to get the desired return from the Patriots, and if they feel that they'll get a greater return by putting more into that invetsment, then they will. Kraft bough the Patriots four years ago when they were valued by most to be worth around $100 million dollars. Some ten years later, they're in the neighborhood of being valued close to a $1 billion dollars. The current "asking price" for Liverpool appears to be a shade less than $200 million dollars, and this does not include the cost fo financing a new, 60,000-seat stadium that would probably cost a little more than that (as suggested in numerous press reports). So let's say we're looking at an investment of about $450 million to get a controlling share of the club, as well as a new stadium. Kraft could certainly put up a large sum of his own money, perhaps borrowing a substantial amount of money against both his current assets and anticipated revenues from the new stadium, while almost certainly seeing signfificant funds being brought in via stadium naming rights or new sponsorship, as well as whatever money from Jefferies can bring to the table. It's a lot up front, but in looking ahead ten years it could all be worth it. Liverpool could have their own stadium which would not require a ground-share, one where they could reap the $$$ from other events held at the stadium as well, expanded world-wide marketing and exposure through sponsorship agreements and more, and perhaps a quality of football that sees them mentioned alongside not only the Arsenal's and Manchester United's, but the Real Madrid's, Inter Milan's, and other high profile clubs of the world. As for the New England Revolution? He purchased the franchise for $5 million back in 1995. What's the club value worth today? Who knows, but what's the value of the club in terms of filling dates for the Krafts? Probably more than the franchise itself. Kraft may like the Revolution, and may feel that he's using it as a means of "bringing soccer to New England," but the Revolution are the vehicle for that, and he'll only put as much money into it as necessary to get a return on his investment. The investment is soccer, the vehicle are the Revolution; end of story. The Magpie
The investment is soccer, the vehicle are the Revolution; end of story. The Magpie Actually return on investment is the "end of story", exactly how Jacobs (and Glazer I'd guess) look at things. Specious is the argument that Kraft is somehow different, at least from Jacobs, as much as I wish it were so.
Ask Patriots season ticket-holders how they feel about Kraft. Ask Bruins season ticket-holders how they feel about Jacobs. You'll find two, distinctly opposed and highly polarized opinions. Suggesting the two are similar, or to suggest Kraft is like Jacobs is quite a poor comparison. The Magpie
geeeeeez, i don't think i heard anyone say this.....FOUR TO FIVE YEARS AGO! oh, yeah i did.....ME! hey mlsinhd, care to some reasearch and see what's happened over the last 4-5 yrs after i told myself this? but....this is exactly what the revs want people like mlsinhd to do. every year it's the same thing.....come up with the 'flavor of the day'/'excuse for the previous season' on why attendance dropped yet again.....come up with some promotion or promise that next year things will be different....and then come up with a brand new excuse all over again the following year. maybe you're just not all that long in the tooth with the revs there mlsinhd....i'd rather you'd be right (from this point on) than wrong....but, history is not on your side my friend.
Unfortunately.....if you ask revs season ticket holders about kraft and bruins fans about jacobs, i think you get a heck of a lot closer in opinion all of a sudden. nfl fans are so well entrenched in the sports landscape, they don't really care about how ownership view them. clearly, revs and bruins fans do. i know i'm not telling you anything you didn't already know. i think we all see mls as a short term losing proposition/investment with long term gains if, and only if, you can increase awareness of the league/sport and nuture a fanbase that increases with each year. maybe idiot wind doesn't fully understand that these guys were basically handed a large interested fanbase and found every conceivable way to decrease their following year after year after year. maybe he can tell us how this helps the bottom line....or kraft soccer's "return on investment".
I see a strong similarity between Jacobs' approach with the Bruins, and Kraft's approach with the Revs. I see more similarity between the NHL and EPL than the EPL and NFL. I don't really care how bright Kraft is if it doesn't help the Revs. You apparently disagree, which is fine with me. Time for us both to let this thread die.
I know you hate the way the Revs are run, but in this case you need to get your eyes checked if that's what you're seeing. The Bruins: historically profitable The Revs: not profitable and may not be for a while The Patriots: very profitable Liverpool FC: should be profitable Which one doesn't belong?
I assume that was tongue in cheek, since the behavior by Jacobs that Idiot Wind referred to took place over a number of years before the lock-out. As far as I know the Bruins were consistently profitable in recent years.
But the knock against the Bruins was that they were cheap when it came to building a winning team. Fair or not, the perception was that if Jacobs could field a team that was just competitive enough to give people hope, but never good enough to win it all (that would cost a lot of money, after all), the team would be profitable. Now you could argue that the free spending teams like the Rangers, Red Wings, Leafs, etc. are the ones who got the league into the mess that it is in now, and that Jacobs/Sinden were just being "prudent" but a lot of fans are not happy with the way thing have gone on Causeway Street over the last few years. Of course, the one thing we can be thankful for is that we are not the Blackhawks! I'm surprised no one has done a case study for a "sports management" major showing how various teams in different sports have gone from turning the proverbial silk purse into the sow's ear. You could count the Revs among that group, as well as the Blackhawks, Expos and a few others. Tom
Well, the Leafs and Red Wings were also members of that handful of teams that consistently turned a profit (though the Redwings were said to have done so only on the condition that they made the playoffs). Yes, thank god that we are not the Blackhawks. Beautiful new arena, a whole city full of people who honestly want to be fans, and a long and storied history, all ruined by one man's greed.
you stated that 'return on investment' is kraft's (and other owners') main motive....i guess i'm asking for your analysis on the overwhelmingly steady decline of rev nation and how that fits the 'return on investment' mantra.
As I've said repeatedly in this thread, Kraft's approach towards the Revs should in no way serve as a reflection of how he'd (possibly) approach Liverpool from an operational and business perspective. Yes, it would be nice if Kraft demonstrated the same commitment and same passion for the Revolution as he does the Patriots, but from a business perspective that appreciates Kraft's demonstrated investment philosophy, and when recognizing where Kraft comes from in terms of being a sports fan, I can understand the approach he takes to the Revs. Kraft can "throw money at the problem" that's the Revs, or he can be prudent in what he spends and how it's spent, and if the latter satisfies his goals with respect to the club just as readily as throwing money at it... then why would he throw money at it? Robert Kraft is a sports fan, and no doubt he takes some pleasure (along with Jonathan) in having a second team to support, one which he can use to promote soccer in New England. That being said, Kraft likewise appreciates how, in having an investment in the Revolution and MLS, he gets greater and perhaps better access to additional soccer-related events that not only will fill more dates at Gillette Stadium, but will perhaps draw in greater revenue. Think back to the end of the 2004 regular season where Revs g.m. Craig Tornberg was reported to have made the suggestion that the Revolution, from a front office business perspective, are the most successful club in the league. This revelation (as it were) came some two years after a significant restructuring of the front office and team operations took place, with almost 1/2 the front office being issued pink slips, or leaving of their own accord soon there-after. Operating costs have been slashed, some services have been cut back, but two years removed from these initial changes, the Krafts have seemingly found the point where they can mantain the (relative) vaibility of the franchise at a minimum of cost, this while still reaping the greater benefits of having an MLS team. Now turning the other side of the coin, the Krafts can now start building up the franchise after stripping it down to it's bare operating parts. Significantly dropping ticket prices is a start, but chances are the reason for this is less due to a "thank you" tied to the 10th anniversary of the league, but with a clear understanding in the front office as to what this will cost the organization... but also, what it can bring to the organization. Liverpool Football Club is an entirely different kettle of fish, and as I've said before, I don't truly know what Kraft's intentions are towards the club, if any, other than that it represents a good investment at this point (relatively low-cost, stable club with rich history, loads of potential). What I've also tried to suggest is that the present set of circumstances at Liverpool would not at all be unfamiliar to Robert Kraft when compared to his experiences dealing with the Patriots over the last ten years. He might not know the lyrics to You'll Never Walk Alone, but I'd bet he could related to the fans in the Kop... he could relate to how Liverpool fans feel about their club. He's been through an effort to get a stadium built, he's gone through the process of getting a good business model in place, and he understands that he doesn't need to operate in a fashion consistent with the status quo in order to be competitive both on and off the field. This is why I think he could make a difference at Liverpool: he's been down a similar road with the Patriots, he can likely relate to the club's history and their fan-base as a sports fan... as a Patriots fan to be more specific, and he probably does see the forest for the trees in terms of potential reciprocal benefits for soccer in New England, if not specifically the Revs... ... and that's why this thread won't immediately die, nor should it, at least until an identifiable official from the Kraft organization goes on record to refute the stories that have been widely-circulated in the news media, and are being discussed with great interest on both sides of the pond. We can talk 'til we're blue in the face as to how we feel about potential investment. It's clear we'll have to agree to disagree on whether Kraft would be a good person to invest in Liverpool, and I respect that to a degree, but ,I want to know for certain whether Kraft is actually considering such an investment, rather than operating on the assumption he is. Without confirmation that the Kraft's are not looking to invest, or are not truly part of a consortium actively planning to invest, the discussion should go on. The Magpie
Evan is right on in regards to this whole issue, as to why we continue to debate this thing to death, because nobody truly knows if Kraft is really interested in investing into Liverpool FC. or not. Until we know something officially, this thread should be disucussed further. All I hope for is that all this talk on Kraft and Liverpool will somehow get the Krafts more interested in their own franchise here in Foxboro.
I think there are different things going on here: We're talking about Bob's Money and we're talking about Bob's (or his son's) Time and Attention. Bob spends his money on a lot of things. One of the things that Bob spent his money on was a new football stadium that turned out to be not as good for the "kid brother" soccer team as it was billed. I think that when Jon was more directly involved with the Revs, fans opinions of how well the team as an organization was being run were better than they are now. For whatever reason, Bob and Jon do not appear to have been directly involved in the Revs for several years. Maybe they will be this year. If so, maybe we'll see a dramatic turnaround like the Wizards saw after Lamar got directly involved in the season ticket campaign and other marketing efforts in KC. Maybe the ticket price cut is part of the Krafts flexing their muscles to turn the ship around. The sense I'm getting from people here is that at Liverpool, no matter who is providing the money, the team is going to be in good hands managementwise and "soccer people" who are also "intelligent business people" are going to be running the show. More power to them, I hope they get their money from somewhere. For those who have been waiting for next year, maybe this is finally the year that things will start looking up operations wise. It would be awfully nice (in my opinion) to go back to 1996 or 1997, when we still sucked, but it was a good kind of sucking, one that you didn't feel alone in and one that you didn't feel like you were being grossly overcharged for. A "going concern" sucking, if you will, one where you're secure in the knowledge that there's a next year coming and that even if you suck, there's another one after that.
It is more interesting to know if he is interested in investing in the Revolution, beyond simply keeping the operation going on a shoestring.
It would seem that The Panel on Takeovers and Mergers -- a U.K. regulatory body based in London that administers the City Code on Takeovers and Mergers, and "oversees the conduct of takeovers involving companies listed on the London Stock Exchange' -- has received notice of a formal bid for Liverpool FC from The L 4 Group. You can see the bid disclosure through the following link dated December 6, 2004. Scroll down to where the "Offeree" is identified as Liverpool Football Club: http://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/forms/disclosurelist.asp Now, the "Offerer" is identified as "The L 4 Group (A consortium formed by Mike Jeffries and Stuart Ford)." This is the group the Kraft family has been linked to in numerous press reports. Apparently this is what's referred to as a "Rule 2.10 announcement," which can be explained by going to Rule 2, Section 10 on page 60 of the PDF file availabe by clicking on the Code/SARS button on the following page: http://www.thetakeoverpanel.org.uk/ FWIW, I think this effectively is a formal heads-up to club shareholders that L 4 is going to make a bid for the club. The statement from Liverpool: http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N146992041205-2054.htm It might be worth everyone's while to keep an eye on the following web site for the near future: http://www.rns.com/ This is the the LSE market news source where an official share purchase announcement would be made. We should be able to see how many shares are sold, at what price per share, the total purchase price. The Magpie
Well, I wouldn't really put the Expos management in that group, as I think it seems like both Canadian markets were turned off by the players' strike (Toronto hasn't fully recovered either). But to me the funny thing about Bruins is just how far they've fallen. In the 60's, when the Celts won every year, the Bruins still well out drew them, and growing up in the 70's during the Orr years, everybody played youth hockey. I used to really love the sport, and to be honest, I didn't disagree with Sinden when he was doing his part to try to keep spending under control while the rest of the league went silly. But then I noticed in the early 90's just how boring the B's were to watch, compared to other teams, and figured out why my interest was waning. But that said, you can't say that Sinden was wrong about where all that spending would leave the league. As for the Revs, I've been relatively happy with the team and coaching the past few years (I do think that injuries have been more of a cause in the number of losses lately), but it's the upper management that has been a bit of a turn off.
AMERICANS EYE ANFIELD ROLE By David Maddock, The Mirror (UK), 12/7/04 http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/sport...ine=americans-eye-anfield-role-name_page.html "LIVERPOOL have received an official takeover offer from an American-based consortium led by two film producers. The move was announced on the stock exchange yesterday, amid claims that the consortium is backed by the wealthy owners of the American Football franchise, the New England Patriots. Privately, the Anfield board have dismissed the offer as "insignificant", and chief executive Rick Parry went as far as to rubbish the American consortium's proposal at Liverpool's annual meeting last Thursday..." FYI, The Magpie
Oops, I think I read that too fast. Ok Kraft is backing the two film producers. I misread it. I wonder when this whole deal is supposed to go down...
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to The Magpie again." Once again, The Magpie is spot-on. One point that should be worth mentioning is that one of the major reasons to own a big-time sports team these days is franchise appreciation. If Kraft sold the Patriots today, how much above what he paid do you think he'd get? It's a little tougher to gague his investment in MLS/The Revs/SUM, but the initial investment was $5 million. Let's say he's sunk a average (net loss) of $2 million a year into soccer, so that would bring the total investment to $23 million. Are the Revs worth $23 million? But as Magpie said, having the Revs is the Krafts' key to big-time soccer. You can bet your bottom dollar if they Revs ever folded or wer sold to another city, the only soccer we'd get in Foxboro would be Charlie Stillitano's travelling circus of lethargic European friendlies. In other words, we'd be Philadelphia. Say what you want about the Revs, but I'd take a poorly-run, crap team at expensive prices if Philadelphia was the alternative. And metoo, my point about the Expos and other teams that have gone into the toilet from a reasonable position was that the Expos were not always the sickly child. They used to get decent crowds, even in the Big Owe, and although they could never compete with the Yankees, Sox, Braves, Dodgers and other big spenders, they could certainly be (and were) like Oakland, a competitive team on a lower budget. Fans there were disgusted with the 1994 strike in a large part because that was the best team they ever had (best record in the majors) and a lot of (neutral) folks thought they'd have an excellent shot at winning the whole thing. But after the strike, Bronfmann sold off many of the players, cut costs, and the team began to stink. Not surprisingly, a lot of fans gave up. They could have had a successful team there, but unfortunately, it didn't happen. There are lots of similar examples of owners turning a good thing bad for a variety of reasons. One good thing about the worldwide soccer ownership model is that the big clubs are managed by a board, and it is not unusual for angry fans to throw the bums out if they don't like what is going on. Sure, the pendulum can swing too far, but with our model, fans have no recourse to deal with an Art Modell a Bob Irsay, or a Walter O'Malley. Tom