Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by tcmahoney, Nov 17, 2004.
... something like this happens.
The young man now joins Mr. Rogers among the ranks of people picketed by Mr. Phelps and his band of nutjobs.
I'd like to ask a rhetorical question (which I think I know the answer to...)....Why would someone go to all this trouble to protest against a 17 yo gay person ? Do you see them getting into their pick ups and driving 100's of miles to protest against a child molestor ? A bank robber ? A loan shark ?
What is it about homosexuality that brings out such a visceral reaction in a small number of people ?
I'm probably going to get flamed for saying something so 'soft,' but that is really touching.
Man, what can be said...
A couple of years ago, there was an article on Phelps in the Intelligence Report from the Southern Poverty Law Center. In the article, a gay rights activist in Tulsa said he doubted there was anyone in Tulsa who spent more timing thinking about anal sex than Fred Phelps.
That's a beautiful story.
There are too many people for whom "WWJD" is just a fashion statement. It's good to see that there are still some people who wear "WWJD" on the inside -- on their hearts.
Anyone who would is beyond hope. A truly great story.
Agreed. Fantastic story.
Thanks for posting - a really interesting article that left me with conflicting responses.
First, what kind of a shithole is Kansas when it becomes the butt (sorry) of jokes for Oklahomans?
I'm left wondering by the poor fellow who was caught in the cross-currents of a battle between those who:
A. Hate the sinner and,
B. Love the sinner but hate the sin.
The kid is being compared to an alchoholic or a drunk:
"I get to speak about the grace of God," he said. "No matter what the sin, God loves you. He is saying, 'Come on, come back to the family.' I was an alcoholic and a drug addict. I can see the possibility of change."
A transformation, from gay to straight.
"These are the hopes, that Michael will change," Eubanks said.
But there are hopeful signs, too:
(Parishoner) Watie voted for Oklahoma's ban on same-sex marriage. Civil unions? He might have considered those. Homosexuality? "That's between the person and God," Watie said.
His name was Toby Jenkins and he was a Free Will Baptist pastor for 17 years before accepting that he was gay. Now he preaches at a gay evangelical church in Tulsa.
Wow! They allow that in Oklahoma?
Made me think of something that was repeated far too often for my taste. Why is it that so many people think that homosexuality is something that can be grown out of, or forcibly changed? Don't get me wrong, it was a great story of tolerance, but this kind of thinking is way to prevalent.
That really is the love the sinner hate the sin attitude, however. If being gay wasn't a choice, it wouldn't be much of a sin, would it?
Ain't it a bitch when sins don't quite pan out.
Exactly. He "seems to think he's gay." The mother's known about this for a year and half, and that's as close to accepting it as she's gotten? His priest saw him after the service "and seized the chance. He invited Michael to lunch. There was work to do." In other words, we love you kid, but we're going to do everything in our power to convince you how wrong you are.
It's great to see the town rally around him, but in a month's time, is it likely that people who say things like "Leave our homos alone" are really going to accord those "homos" the same sort of support and acceptance? How long before someone at Arby's calls him a "queer" again?
Like most religious whackos, Phelps conveniently ignores the parts of the Bible which conflict with his twisted view.
"Judge not, lest ye be judged".
God hates ********? I tell you what, I'm pretty sure there's a special place in Hell for preaching hate.
Provided you believe homosexuality is a sin, as many Christians do (I don't know if most do), what other possible way could you approach this? Keep telling him to change his ways and find God, but be respectful of his choice. As far as I'm concerned, in a fairly literal religious culture, this is as good as its going to get. If you're looking for widespread acceptance of homosexuality as a genetic predisposition rather than a choice, I'm not sure a highly religious community is the place to start.
Quite frankly, if being proselytized is the extent of the boy's hardship, I'd say the battle's mostly won already.
You and I believe that - they don't. I've said it before - so long as no one discriminates, you can be as prejudices as you want. I do not want laws put in place forcing people in Oklahoma to believe that being gay is not a choice anymore than I want laws telling me to believe that Christ is my savior.
Mike and Nicephoras -
I'm not saying the religious folks in his town have to give up their views on homosexuality being a sin. It would be nice, but whatever. Yet it always gets to me when they think they can brow-beat, or brain-wash, it out of someone. Foisting their beliefs onto the kid isn't what I would call being supportive.
And this is the reasonable middle ground that so few want to talk about. The polls I've seen look like:
35% Hate ********
35% Civil Unions are OK
30% I Wanna Marry Mr. Ed
In their mind it is. If you believed you had eternal salvation to offer to someone, wouldn't you do that?
When I stopped being religious some of the people in my temple talked to me about it. I still go for the high holidays, and they don't really bring it up. But, me being Jewish, they mostly ended the conversations with "well, one day you'll see". Christianity, being a far more proselytizing religion, naturally takes this a bit further. I'm really not sure what better reaction you could possibly get from a group of religious people who take their Holy Book pretty literally.
Except that adultery, for the most part, is a choice.
Homosexuality, for the most part, is pre-programmed.
I fully agree.
I would venture to guess that most Christians who believe engaging in a homosexual act is a sin either accept or are non-commital on whether homosexuality is due to a biological predisposition. The matter of choice still exists. It is no different than alcoholism being in part biological but having drunkeness being considered a sin. Ditto anger.
P.S. - I wish the rapture thread hadn't closed so quickly. Mainstream denominations and many evangelicals do not interpret Revelation to include a actual rapture and tribulation. Not everyone thinks of the Left Behind series as the Third Testament, along with the Old and New.
I'd love to hear an argument against it.
Actual numbers from NYT poll from July '04:
"Which comes closest to your view? Gay couples should be allowed to legally marry. OR, Gay couples should be allowed to form civil unions but not legally marry. OR There should be no legal recognition of a gay couple's relationship."
Legal Marriage: 28%
Civil Union: 31%
No Legal Recognition: 40%