Joy Division or New Order

Discussion in 'Movies, TV and Music' started by hangthadj, Nov 4, 2004.

  1. hangthadj

    hangthadj Member+

    A.S. Roma
    Mar 27, 2001
    Beacon, NY
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    So for most the past year I've been listening to a shitload of New Order. For a while I was even of the opinion that Ian Curtis' death was the best thing that could have happened to popular music. Yeah, it's extreme, I take it back. The past month, and maybe its circumstances, I've listened almost exclusively to Joy Division. That's quite an achievement considering their limited output.

    So I got around to wondering, who has had a greater impact on popular music, Joy Division or New Order? I honestly don't know.
     
  2. 655321

    655321 New Member

    Jul 21, 2002
    The Mission, SF
    Now may not be the best time to ask that question, considering the rebirth of hipster haircut bands who list Joy Division as one of the big influences.

    I think Joy Division has had more of an influence on specific bands, but New Order has certainly had more of an impact on popular music in general.
     
  3. hangthadj

    hangthadj Member+

    A.S. Roma
    Mar 27, 2001
    Beacon, NY
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    There seem to be hundreds of them around suddenly. Obviously I never saw Joy Division live, but from what I am lead to believe, the lives shows aren't even in the same league.
     
  4. 655321

    655321 New Member

    Jul 21, 2002
    The Mission, SF
    Go seek out the "Here Are The Young Men" video, it's worth it.
     
  5. Footix

    Footix Member

    Dec 11, 1998
    Left Of The Dial
    I'd have to say New Order's influence is far greater, especially since they've influenced many sub-genres of rock, pop, and dance, not to mention how the Blue Monday 12" revolutionized a piece of the record industry, and really introduced the "dance mix" to most of the world...they weren't the first to do it, but they made the biggest impact.

    Many of the bands that claim Joy Division as an influence usually sound more New Order-ish to me anyway...and the whole Interpol thing really is about the singer's voice/delivery, not so much the actual music, isn't it?
     
  6. hangthadj

    hangthadj Member+

    A.S. Roma
    Mar 27, 2001
    Beacon, NY
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    That's how I view Interpol as well. I wonder how many kids getting into Interpol have purchased some Joy Division and then just started scratching their heads.

    655321, is that a concert video you speak of?
     
  7. bojendyk

    bojendyk New Member

    Jan 4, 2002
    South Loop, Chicago
    I can't say which has been more important in the long run, but I certainly prefer Joy Division. New Order was never my thing. The appeal of them escapes me.

    But the first three Wire records blow both bands away.
     
  8. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    To answer the thread title, New Order for me.


    As to the bigger impact, I'd call it a draw.
     
  9. Ronaldo T Willemski

    Ronaldo T Willemski New Member

    Nov 2, 2004
    Brizroy
    But ive never meet anyone quite like you before.

    My brother went to England 1985 and came back with all things that were New Order. Love em to bits. Had the honour of seeing a New Order gig three years back when they did the BDO tour.

    Blue Monday is the highest selling 12'' incher of all time :D (no pun intended)
    That song sits in Willemski's top 5 of all time.

    Maybe the death of Ian Curtis holds some emotional value which may swing the vote towards Joy Division.

    Willemski gives the vote to New Order..
     
  10. nancyb

    nancyb Member

    Jun 30, 2000
    Falls Church, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Another confession here. I don't any stuff by either. If I were to go out and buy something tomorrow (seems very likely, actually), what cd by either would you recommend?
     
  11. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    Leeds United FC
    I used to love New Order when I was in HighSchool but I find that I can easily live without alot of it now (and some of it I can barely stand) - maybe just heard it way too many times. I still like Joy Division (and Wire).
     
  12. Dyvel

    Dyvel Member+

    Jul 24, 1999
    The dog end of a day gone by
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    I've always had an attraction to songs about fear, anger, loneliness, abandonment, and depression.

    Joy Division for me.
     
  13. MikeLastort2

    MikeLastort2 Member

    Mar 28, 2002
    Takoma Park, MD
    New Order had more influence on popular music because they were, well, more popular than Joy Division.

    I think that Joy Division had more influence on bands who eventually became popular though.

    New Orders popularity was helped by the fact that alternative music became mainstream, but the influence of Joy Division is one of the things that made alternative popular.

    Or something like that. :)
     
  14. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Both New Order & Joy Division titled their singles collections "Substance." I have both (somewhere) on cassette and they give a really good and pretty comprehensive introduction to both bands.
     
  15. Ghost

    Ghost Member+

    Sep 5, 2001
    I like Joy Division, and selected tracks (the original Temptation, the album version of Sub-culture, and mot of all Everything's Gone Green) are outstanding dance records. But Joy Division is on an extremely short list of great bands of all time. If New Order produced anything as emotionally walloping as the second side of "Closer" ...... well, frankly, they didn't.
     
  16. hangthadj

    hangthadj Member+

    A.S. Roma
    Mar 27, 2001
    Beacon, NY
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    nancyb, like c pizzeria stated a few posts up I would say that both "substance" collections are good intyroductions to these bands. With New Order though, their substance collection definately was more slanted to their dance type music and they do have quite a bit of just plain good guitar driven pop as well.
     
  17. nancyb

    nancyb Member

    Jun 30, 2000
    Falls Church, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I really need to rent 24 Hour Party People one of these days.
     
  18. hangthadj

    hangthadj Member+

    A.S. Roma
    Mar 27, 2001
    Beacon, NY
    Club:
    Columbus Crew

    I really didn't think it was that great. I think I'm the only one, though.
     
  19. Mad_Bishop

    Mad_Bishop Member

    Oct 11, 2000
    Columbia, MO
    I think I would suggest Joy Division's Permanant over Substance. Has most of the singles plus the better album tracks.
     
  20. 655321

    655321 New Member

    Jul 21, 2002
    The Mission, SF
    I'll second that.

    And as far as 24 Hour Party People goes...if you didn't like Madchester, don't bother. The movie goes like this...talk about Joy Divison for like 20-30 minutes, move onto New Order for a whole, oh I don't know, EIGHT ********ING MINUTES...then Happy Mondays for about the next four hours. Then it's over.

    I loved it, but I also consider Bummed to be one of my top five albums of the entire eighties. I just walked out feeling they seriously did the audience a disfavor by glossing over New Order's rise to greatness.
     
  21. hangthadj

    hangthadj Member+

    A.S. Roma
    Mar 27, 2001
    Beacon, NY
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    I think we had this discussion before, but being someone who never really got into Happy Monday's and at the same time LOVED New Order, the slight to new order in the movie really ruined it for me.
     
  22. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    I am AndyMead, and I approve this post.

    Joy Division has sort of become the John Lennon to Bauhaus's Paul McCartney. Joy Division is the cool "artistic" goth band - but to be perfectly honest - their catalog is more potential than realization.

    New Order really redefined the leading edge of dance pop. They maintained their own appeal while becoming accessible to the masses.
     
  23. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    I don't really agree that Joy Division helped to make alternative popular. Joy Division really appealed to its niche - of which I was a part - but it really was not accessible. If anything, it was Bauhaus/Love and Rockets/Tones on Tail that pushed goth into more of a mainstream audience. Joy Division didn't last long enough - at least not in the U.S. New Order's music is a rather strong departure from Joy Division, and I've had trouble convincing some folks that they're basically the same band. The whole 4AD Beggars Banquet push towards college mainstream was led by groups like the Cocteau Twins, Lush, Yaz, Siouxsee, and New Order - I'm not really sure what influence that Joy Division had other than the cool cachet of someone saying they were influenced by them. I really can't recall to many popular bands that have put out anything that evokes Joy Division.

    Maybe that's just me.

    If someone wanted a primer on the bounds of Goth Rock, I'd have them listen to Joy Division's Love Will Tear Us Apart and the 9 minute live version of Bauhaus's Bela Legosi's Dead.
     
  24. 655321

    655321 New Member

    Jul 21, 2002
    The Mission, SF
    I don't really want to get into a whole thing here, but the idea that Joy Division has had less of an impact on alternative music than Bauhaus or Tones On Tail is pretty ridiculous to me. Perhaps more "real Goths" :rolleyes: liked Bauhaus, but Joy Division has had more universal appeal and popularity (if that word can even be used here).
     
  25. obie

    obie New Member

    Nov 18, 1998
    NY, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Answer: New Order on both counts, primarily because of "Blue Monday". It was a dance song that rock people could enjoy, a real revolutionary crossover. Even if you think that JD was a superior group they didn't open up new commercial channels in the way that New Order did.
     

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