News: Jermaine Jones criticizes the USWNT equal pay and says Alex Morgan too outspoken

Yep. The ticket inflation has been pretty bad. It's actually probably the thing most responsible in the average attendance drop from a scarily consistent mid-30k to mid-upper 20k.

 

Following up on this: 37,040 added to the USWNT home attendances takes their average from 21,722 to 23,423. SheBelieves Cup was an attendance drain.

USMNT sits at 23,117 YTD. Total is higher (to be expected with the USWNT in France).

If the trend holds, this could be the first year the USWNT surpasses the USMNT in average home attendance (over the 2010-2019 decade).

Interesting fact: the USMNT has yet to play overseas this calendar year, which is highly unusual, but will be remedied with the CONCACAF Nations League coming up.

 

I'd add that there is also frequently an artificial cap in recent years on qualifiers, as they've gone to MLS-sized venues in order to spur sellouts and control the away fan effect.

 

For me personally as a fan, that "it happens" attitude is frustrating to see cited repeatedly and is zero consolation; it seems to shift the blame to circumstances, excuses, the law of averages and/or general misfortune rather than a team's failure, and it seems to imply [though unintentionally] that the team gets a pass from owning [and learning from] the mistakes that caused it. It wasn't a satisfying attitude when the USMNT lost to T&T at the end of WCQ and it wasn't satisfying when the USWNT lost to Sweden in the Olympic QF. It won't be on that dark possible day in the future when the women's team doesn't qualify for the World Cup either.

Maybe it's unfair of me to associate it more with the men's team than the women's at current, but I think there's a somewhat sound basis for that association. A lot of the posters in the men's forum seem to be a lot more harsh toward the USMNT than anyone has been here, which tells me I may not be alone in that frustration.

 

It's not designed to be consolation in this context; it's designed to reflect reality in the cold light of distance from the emotion of the event.

What? No, that's crazy. Only through failure does learning (true learning) happen. Again, speaking in terms of realism away from the raw emotions of the event bespeaks a maturity and willingness to learn from the event. Looking at it as blame-shifting is projection of immaturity and/or entitlement. This SHOULD end up shaking the USMNT out of the sense of entitlement that had been allowed to build up.

That place is a crazy place. It deals in the emotion of the immediate. This being a different venue naturally changes the way people deal with and post about the same things. It was (and still is, to a large extent) frustrating as hell in the moment. Looked at over a longer horizon and freed of the emoters over there, we can be more contemplative and can enjoy a greater perspective.

One must not forget, also, that the USMNT board has a rather insane reputation around BigSoccer. It's well-earned.

 

That's fair. Perhaps I picked up my cynicism from that forum.

That "blame-shifting" thing may have been a poor choice of words on my part, but I don't see how it reflects immaturity or entitlement. I just see the outlook through a different lens because of how it can be abused. It's just that a lot of the USMNT's losses didn't seem to prompt enough inward reflection, which is why I harp on that mentality that failures are eventualities. When applied improperly, that mentality means that even when the same failures repeat over and over in the same fashion, they're acceptable in some way. The mentality itself is really only flawed if used as a crutch for refusing to address the mistakes, rather than a mechanism for getting past the disappointment and moving on with a stronger will and a wiser mind. My concern is that the temptation to employ it in the former manner is a powerful one.

 

No doubt, I can also look at the men's failure from a " what on Earth happened" perspective as much as anyone. Just as, I'm sure, Italy did the same last year.
I'm just pointing out, on this board, that for the purposes of the men's vs. Women's success debate, that there is another perspective, and that is qualifying for the men is not easy. Nor should it be.
And there are outside perspectives (Euro fans), as it has been many years since we failed to qualify, and certainly the first time our country largely cared about it.
In sum, comparing the women winning the world cup to the men "struggling to even qualify" is a fallacy argument, but key to the equal pay politics.

 

Hard not to.

Expectation can turn easily into unrealistic expectation or entitlement.

1. Failure is absolutely inevitable. To pretend otherwise is to be naive.
2. There is a TON of inward reflection, even if you cut through most of the insanity on the USMNT boards.

You're confusing fatalism for realism.

Bottom line is that the men have a TON more barriers to relative excellence. You simply cannot assume the same results if you have any understanding of...well, sports in general. Even with those barriers, the USMNT is far from poor seen in full context. They've been as high as #8. That's not nothing!

 

Maybe what has been somewhat forgotten here and elsewhere is what it has taken and what the women had to sacrifice to get to where they are today and, in some ways even more, remain in the ascendancy of women's soccer. It is not to say that the men have had it any easier, and in some ways it might be harder, but to say the women have it easier in qualifying and even in World Cups kind of misses how much trouble they went through to get to where they are.

The fact that most of CONCACAF is horrible should make the men's path to get in the World Cup easy but they allow teams as bad as T&T, El Salvador and all the other minnows to act as roadblocks instead of just steamrollering over them. Even with all the "away" tricks that get allowed by the toothless CONCACAF federation those minnows should NEVER win. All that is required to qualify is win at home and draw on the road and the ONLY team in CONCACAF that should be able to impede that is Mexico. If the men lose at home to anyone in CONCACAF other than Mexico then they have failed.

The women also should beat everyone in CONCACAF easily with the only exception, from time to time, being Canada.

If the men believe they should get more per game/appearance than the women get then they should at least perform at an acceptable level and it has been years since the men did that. Yes they once looked like they might get pretty good BUT they have fallen far from that.

Should the women get equal compensation from US Soccer? Of course. There is even good argument that, at the current relative level of performance, the men are vastly over compensated.

The Women are the best in the world by far and the men cannot even become the best in CONCACAF. That is the only comparison that matters. The ability to draw crowds is actually about equal when you look at how many "fans" attend matches to watch and cheer for "the other guys."

To me there is really no debate on the National team level.

However, on the club level I do believe that MLS players (and other men's league players worldwide) should be paid more than the women because they draw more and make more money for the team and the league. Of course as the NWSL grows and gains more revenue the compensation should go up.

The US Women's National team has earned equal compensation but the NWSL, and other women's leagues worldwide, have not yet done so, In fact, as much as it pains me to say so, the NWSL has not, yet, proved that it is a viable league. But I hope it will.

 

This exhibits a learned ignorance that almost borders on xenophobia. MEXICO can't even consistently draw on the road in qualies. Mexico, over the balance of the last 10 years is better than the US, but not by a ton. Mexico is similarly despised in Central America. Mexico has had their own slip-ups at The Office and in Port-of-Spain, and Tegucigulpa, and Colón, and Mazatenango and Columbus.

Ya know, for all the bits that have been slaughtered over this, this is an argument I have yet to hear made explicit by anyone serious.

Again with the learned ignorance. Anywho, dropping from the 96th percentile to the 90th sure is a long way!

Would you be so kind as to define your parameters?

1. According to Beau Dure's (so far) brief research, they're both wildly overcompensated.
2. If you go back even three years, that's a seriously fraught position. (16k avg vs. 28k avg [a low to that point] and 387k total vs. 335k)

There's a mountain of shit to wade through in making that pat statement. It is not remotely that simple.

This is demonstrably not true.

 

Qualifying for the men is easier than winning the WWC for the women.

Again Italy or anyone is not the excuse, did you see Italy saying "it's tough" as their excuse for fail to qualify?

 

Used to be. The men suck so bad now that nothing is easy anymore.

 

I don't hate the USMNT at all. I became their fan years earlier than the WNT. The USMNT and MLS doing well is only going to help the WNT to further develop.

But I am really not pleased with their performance in recent years, especially failing to qualify for the WC.

 

Stop being an ass. You know that's not true, and if you don't, you're dumber than your post suggests.

 

Ok, well its partly true, and I enjoy being an ass. Plus, since I’m not able to insert enough logos and use too many pathos in my posts, I’m clearly a dumbass.

 

They made no sacrifices that their competition didn't also have to make.

All women's NTs face obstacles, if sexism is what you're referring to. In fact, the argument can be made that the USWNT faces fewer and/or less crippling obstacles than, say, Thailand, due to having a lot more money and people and a lot more institutions that can assist in their development (college ball).

 

"Too many pathos"

It's as if it was on cue or something.

 

What other countries face or have faced is totally meaningless to what our women's teams deserve. Comparing other country's programs and culture to ours in order to justify sub-par treatment is like saying that it is OK to beat your wife because your neighbor beats his.

What I am talking about are all the sacrifices made by the women in this country in order to even play the sport. Starting well before the 1970 breakthrough when many countries finally lifted their ban on Women's football. The struggle was very hard on many and still continues today.

The women here are elsewhere received little money or support for training or competition in the early years and the women still are relegated to the second tier of facilities in a number ofplaces in order to train and play. Many players on various women's teams were actually harassed about trying to play the sport they loved.

It was somewhat easier here in the US but it was still quite hard for many of the players. A LOT of the blame lies with US soccer itself as they still do not promote the Women like they do the men and the men are even well under-promoted.

Sexism plays a part here and elsewhere and, it seems greater in many other places, but just because some other women in some other country face similar or greater hardships in no way removes the responsibility from US Soccer. We have the responsibility to treat our women's teams the same as we do the men's and what other countries do or do not do is meaningless to the fair treatment our women deserve.

 

So I've asked the above poster some direct questions over the past couple of pages.

Woe betide me if I'm on said person's ignore list! Ignoring the inconvenient is one's prerogative, but not a good way to achieve discussion.

 

Your post referred to a sacrifice. Every team in the 2019 WWC sacrificed. Sacrifice doesn't make the USWNT special. They were better, richer, and deeper than anyone else.

Maybe you intended to quote someone else?

Wow. This doesn't deserve any sort of reply but one saying it deserves no reply, but I'll give you one anyway.
Try some decaf. My post wasn't attempting to justify a thing, and I think you knew that when you emoted all over a simple point.

And? That struggle was hard on every women's NT.

Welcome to the world. One the USWNT still holds an advantage over most of.

Yes, they were. And that happened all over the world, more often outside the US than within it.

So now we've posted all over the universe to come back to the one thing I was saying in the first place, which is...

This right here. Finally.
The USWNT aren't better people, or more resilient, and they didn't go thru anything women all over the world haven't been thru a dozen times more often playing this sport.
They're bigger, richer, and deeper.

Correct. But immediately afterward, you use my post to reply to someone who isn't me and (apparently) said something I didn't say.

FanOfFutbol, I'd appreciate it if you took my posts at face value and didn't try to infer hidden messages that exist only in your own head. What I said was accurate.

 

Not nothing isn't bad, but something would be better. There's a difference.

To reiterate, of course failures are inevitable and that logic is not in itself flawed, but a team still needs to make darn sure they acknowledge that those failures are the product of mistakes rather than misfortune. I just would like to be able to rest assured that the team recognizes their failures as failures rather than just bad breaks. To excel a team must acknowledge that their fate is, ultimately, exclusively in their own hands. The USMNT very well might realize that already, but [depending on which forum you're reading] there has been reason a couple of times over the past few years to doubt that they did.

Otherwise, I agree:

...when you are willing to learn.

"We are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters coaches."

 

Non-affirmative arguments are used rhetorically all the time. Whether they are fair to use or bear any legal potency is another question.

My point was that we can no more rule out one variable or another as the reason for attendance discrepancies than we can isolate one variable or another as the true reason. Thus that experiment I proposed [probably won't ever happen] to gather more evidence.

 

Correction to the correction: "better than average". It was bothering me and I just couldn't let it go.

 

Job still done

 

Sure.

Quite!