It is time.

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Mel Brennan, Nov 17, 2004.

  1. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What better time to reconsider the entirety of the direction of the American project than now?

    What better time to undertake, peacefully, a Constitutional Convention that, among other things, considers secession, than now?

    The citizenry really do concieve of the employment of American time, resources, power influence and authority - at home and abroad - braodly differently from one another.

    No single personality, or cult thereof, will be able to bridge that gap.

    Either you see war as a last resort, or you do not.
    Either everyone gets health CARE, or they do not.
    Either Christ is among those accepted dieties nonviolent and loving, or Christ is among those who front violence and murder.
    Either the ascendancy of the corporate form of business is good and right and proper, or it is not.
    Either man can act as an all-knowing God, and determine ultimate good and evil, or it can only decide to err, in its lack of Godlike knowledge, on the side of life and forever coming into greater understanding.
    Either the Enlightenment was the End of the Beginning, or the Beginning of the End.
    Either guns have only one function, or they don't.
    Either love has only one arc, or it doesn't.

    Either the very dualistic nature of the posts are within a context of fallibility of framework, or dualism is perfectly knowable and right and just.

    Either justice is the next best thing to the Just Act, or it IS the Just Act.

    If you come down where I come down on these issues, you see America, in its tradition of ever-expanding rights for more and more of its citizens (even though most of those rights-expansion efforts came through the suffering and death of the vocal minorities), as the Greatest Experiment ever enacted, but balanced, always balanced, precariously on a combination of guarantees and interpretations.

    It's time for a nation, or maybe for a few nations, which guarantee relatively beyond interpretation, some very basic things, and a way of being in the world that is different from the way of being in the world that is currently manifested by this government, a way that is unacceptable, for reasons various and sundry, to about 1 of every 2 Americans.

    For example, take a look at what it guaranteed here:

    ...democracy is founded on the free formation of opinion and on universal and equal suffrage. It shall be realised through a representative and parliamentary polity and through local self-government.

    Public power shall be exercised under the law...

    ...Public power shall be exercised with respect for the equal worth of all and the liberty and dignity of the private person.

    The personal, economic and cultural welfare of the private person shall be fundamental aims of public activity. In particular, it shall be incumbent upon the public institutions to secure the right to health, employment, housing and education, and to promote social care and social security.

    The public institutions shall promote sustainable development leading to a good environment for present and future generations.

    The public institutions shall promote the ideals of democracy as guidelines in all sectors of society and protect the private and family lives of private persons. The public institutions shall promote the opportunity for all to attain participation and equality in society. The public institutions shall combat discrimination of persons on grounds of gender, colour, national or ethnic origin, linguistic or religious affiliation, functional disability, sexual orientation, age or other circumstance affecting the private person.


    The lawyers among the group know that the use of shall is purposeful, and it is meaningful. Look at what is not up for interpretation in that nation's document. It is perfect? No; for example, look where the "shall" is abdicated in favour of "should":

    Opportunities should be promoted for ethnic, linguistic and religious minorities to preserve and develop a cultural and social life of their own.

    Now, this is in a nation where its combination, its mix, of social fare-well systems and mixed, sensible economic competitiveness are, for many, the envy of civilization. Can we, can Americans, not do better?

    To submit "no" to that question means that you think that America's foundation, it's institutions that spring from that foundation, are good and right and just, and that no renewal, foundationally, is required.

    To submit "yes" to that question means that the notion of entering into serious discussions that must have everything on the table, including a Constitution Convention that re-considers the right of negotiated secession, ought ot be on the table.

    This is different than some "exploratory" Convention, where, not having built the case nor established the counterbalances to power, we open up the Bill of Rights to desecration by the powers of the Neocon Age, as is the effort here:

    Rhode Island should have a Constitutional Convention to review the state's basic governing document and see what changes might be needed...

    Uh, no. You don't open up your Constitution to SEE what changes MIGHT be needed.

    A Constitutional COnvention MUST be the final, end-product; the RESULT of a process of education, redefinition, discussion negotiation, persuasion, abdication, and transparency.

    I'd like to examine this in a couple of ways:

    First, and easiest/least rigourous:

    Imagine that the nation came to you and MADE you a living, one-person Constitutional Convention. What would you change/not change, and why?

    Secondly, once that first question allows all the Unconsidered to get whatever they want off their chests:

    What are the possible positive permutations of this line of thinking? Is it, in fact, what many Founders envisioned when they saw this initial coming together (i.e., a real re-consideration of the nation every few hundred years)?

    And, of course, what are the less obviouus but maybe more sinister ramifications of it going terribly, horribly, wrong, at any level of reconsideration, affirmation, or re-casting of the nation (or mutliple national) ideals, mores, folksways, and mission?

    In addition, what, in the current age of the state (be it the rise, zenith or denouement of the nation-state and other earlier-century powerful forms) would it take, in the esitmation of those here, for a reconsideration of the nation, in all the fundamental and complex engagements of that sensibility?

    And how do we get outside of the information-industrial complex to operate with better knowing, or is it that it's all info-complexed, and all we can know is what we personally experience, minus (or subject to) the shaping of our perception by the universe of information itself?

    It is time. Or is it? Is that just the arrogance of the man who always thinks that great events happen in his time, or an acknowledgement that little things, little decisions, subtle choices that may become great are always happening, all the time?

    I think that, in the relative safety of this forum, we can bother to consider these things...bother to consider a reconception of not only our nation, but of our very selves; either of our souls, or of what we hope our souls to be.

    I don't see the Founders as Seldon-esque psychohistorians, but rather as open enough to their own fallibility and aware enough of the hubris of nations to be prepared to re-shape the nation, or declare a new one, in circumstances and situations seemingly less problematic than the ones in which we currently find ourselves.
     
  2. DoyleG

    DoyleG Member+

    CanPL
    Canada
    Jan 11, 2002
    YEG-->YYJ-->YWG-->YYB
    Club:
    FC Edmonton
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    For Mel: One padded room.
     
  3. Caesar

    Caesar Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 3, 2004
    Oztraya
    Well, I'm not reading all that.
     
  4. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I suggest you seek psychological assistance, as soon as possible... call the rubber room squad for Mel!
     
  5. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A corollary to my call for a new WAY of getting more folks on more days in more places to the stakholding decision-making table, in terms of reflecting who currently is not / cannot get there, and the timeless fallacy of vote=democracy, when the reality is that a vote CAN EQUAL end product of a democratic citizen's life and living, or it can equal a meaningful less than nothing, empowered by the image versus the reality of that vote.

    Click, and examine the stakeholders that are missing from the so-called democratic table, by (current, at least) design.
     
  6. stopper4

    stopper4 Member

    Jan 24, 2000
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hell no.

    We decided a long time ago that states, or groups of states, do not have the right to secede from the Union. Tough. Get a better candidate next time. Or just wait for the relgious right to over-step itself again.

    Besides, why do you care, Scotland?

    Have you stopped referring to Americans as 'you' and Europeans as 'we'?
     
  7. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  8. DoctorJones24

    DoctorJones24 Member

    Aug 26, 1999
    OH
    So you were just kidding about that list?
     
  9. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I acknowledge that they could be wrong in both content and context.
     
  10. IntheNet

    IntheNet New Member

    Nov 5, 2002
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What else is there?
     
  11. SgtSchultz

    SgtSchultz Member

    Jul 11, 2001
    Parts Unknown
    It is time for the norther states to secede. Payback is a bitch....Remember Atlanta.
     
  12. Coach_McGuirk

    Coach_McGuirk New Member

    Apr 30, 2002
    Between the Pipes
    Actually, the question on whether states have the right to secede was never answered. There is no specific provision in the Constitution either forbidding it nor allowing it. The C.S.A. seceded and, rather than let the courts or the populace decide the matter, an army was raised to coerce, by force, the Confederate states back into the Union.

    It would be a humdinger of a Supreme Court case, if it ever got that far.
     
  13. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    A day may come when the United States of America will cease to exist as a nation. When the nation is so divided that it decides to disolve itself. But today is not that day.

    Perhaps, Mel, you are way ahead of your time.
     
  14. FlashMan

    FlashMan Member

    Jan 6, 2000
    'diego
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm with Mel and Gore Vidal on this one: we need a New Constitutional Convention as soon as possible.

    I know that's about as likely as discovering living dinosaurs at Universal Studios, but whatever....
     
  15. Smiley321

    Smiley321 Member

    Apr 21, 2002
    Concord, Ca
    Then you three are totally insane. You spend endless amounts of blah blah castigating our current crop of leaders, who do you think will lead this convention? Gore Vidal and Noam Chomsky?

    One of the few things I can probably agree with you lunatics on is that our current crop of leaders won't make anyone forget the founding fathers. And that's a slamdunk reason to oppose a constitutional convention as a 98% probable disaster.

    You guys never seem to realize that things are pretty good and could get a million times worse. You have this unrealistic notion of what the country could or should be and you'd destroy the country in a futile pursuit of it.
     
  16. NSlander

    NSlander Member

    Feb 28, 2000
    LA CA
    The drafter of the Declaration of Independence advocated the idea as matter of course. Its amazing what just a small group of lunatics can accomplish.

    One could view this as an opportunity to encourage civic participation and implement long overdue change. Or one can view it like you do. I can only assume you have a similar perspective with regards to other aspects of life. Congratulations.

    The division in our country has gotten beyond stupid and it serves almost nobody. Just the prospect of inviting discussion with a view towards narrowing this divide receives bland hostility such as yours. The hope would be, for just ONCE, to think in terms of “us”, and put aside the “you guys” lab-rat conditioning. Sometimes I think the most strenuous resistance our population could possibly muster would come as a response to asking them to imagine that there is no “them”.

    You know we could do better, but for whatever reasons you’re unwilling to even toy with the idea of exploring solutions. As a result, you simply lock up like Compaq 386.

    So count me among the lunatic fringe. Sit me next to Mel, Flashman, Vidal, and yes Noam. You can do whatever it is you do for fun, which likely involves small animals and a mallet.
     
  17. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nader once submitted that "This country has far more problems than it deserves and far more solutions than it applies."

    In discussing how we might reconsider America not only along the lines of the big-ticket items (taxation, media, privacy, transport, abortion, death penalty, general human rights, economic system), but also with regard to things we might not normally think about (the fundamental assumptions of - and societal needs placed upon - an education system, and not just "education," or how we manage garbage), are there alternatives, in conception and in practice, that we can draw upon to say, for example, "Hey, you know that you can build a car right now that runs on air and produces as exhaust cleaner air than that which goes into it?"

    A while ago I proposed to Bernard White at WBAI a weekend show that basically considered "alternatives to EVERYTHING." It was a show that would talk about nearly everything in our lives, and talk about alternative ways of getting similar results, with different unintended consequences...I mean everything, and it's basis as show was in fact; not thory but things that had been built and worked, better yet up and running somewhere in the world, just to expose us to the fact that what gets presented before us is not necessarily the distillation of some process where all the stakeholdwers come tothe table and talk about, for example, a transportation grid, but rather that the evolution of transport, for example, is one of very few stakeholders even knowing that they are such, let alone participating or affecting the process of conception.

    That is sorta what I'm talking about here; it is time, especially in America, to take a transparent wide-open look at where we are, what ALL the alternatives we come up with are, in and out of dogmas and systems and ideologies and isms, and reflect upon what choosing what we've chosen means for ourselves and everyone else, and what considering alternatives gets us, and what it abandons.

    So, any takers on any issues?
     
  18. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Like the development of alternative cities...

    ...Portugal will serve as the launching pad for these planned ''eco-cities,'' said officials from the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) as they revealed the blueprint for the 'One Planet Living' initiative here Wednesday, at a major conservation conference.

    The 4,340 hectares of land south of the Portuguese capital Lisbon, identified for this first phase in an ambitious global drive towards alternative living, will have by its completion 6,000 houses, apartments, shops and hotels. The estimated cost, according to the WWF, will be over one billion euros (1.3 billion U.S. dollars)...
     
  19. Barbara

    Barbara BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 29, 2000
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seems to me that considering the Christian right running amok now is exactly the wrong time to toss out the constitution. God knows what we'd wind up with at the other hand?

    Separation of church and state? Doesn't stand a chance.


    I love you, Mel, but this really is over the deep end.
     
  20. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You know what? You're probably right. I'd be interested then to have folks go through what exactly it would take for them to BEGIN the process of laying most things on the table and really considering alternatives within or without the current legal framework.

    Or is the framework Americans have for most things sustainable and appropriate and empowering for most people, most of the time?

    I'm prefectly willing to admit that I'm wrong, and that - just in a general sense - the nation is on the clearly correct path, in terms of both its institutions and the employment thereof; I'd just like more evidence than "It could be much worse." Of course it could be much worse. Therefore what? That's Dem-speak (You go up to a Dem and say "you aren't doing sh!t on [insert issue], and they say 'Do you know how bad the Republicans are on this issue?,' and you say 'Oh yeah; well it could be worse,' and go away, and of course the ISSUE never gets resolved), and has us in this place, which, again, may not be all that bad for most people most of the time...I may be overreacting.

    But waiting for the Christian right to walk away from power, or to somehow chronologically mutate into something else, or to wait for a better crop of statesperson to be produced from an education system consistently perfomring more and more poorly for more and more people, is kinda weird to me.

    I may be wrong; given my prediction for the last election, I wouldn't bet on me. But still...
     
  21. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And I love you too Barb. :D
     
  22. Attacking Minded

    Attacking Minded New Member

    Jun 22, 2002
    Um, no, we decided that one. Once you're in, your in. To act otherwise is treason and the rest of the country will kill you, your brother and everyone else who fights, burn your houses to the ground and take over your economy.
     
  23. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You forgot that they will do all that in Christ's Love...
     
  24. christopher d

    christopher d New Member

    Jun 11, 2002
    Weehawken, NJ
    Sure, but giving the Religious Right that much power would be like buying a gutter-licking drunk a couple of cases of Jameson's Irish. Exactly what they don't need, but might be enough of it to either kill them or force some significant change.
     
  25. Attacking Minded

    Attacking Minded New Member

    Jun 22, 2002
    Down went the gunner, a bullet was his fate
    Down went the gunner, then the gunners mate
    Up jumped the sky pilot, gave the boys a look
    And manned the gun himself as he laid aside The Book, shouting
    Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!
    Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!
    Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition and we'll all stay free!

    Praise the Lord and swing into position!
    Can't afford to sit around and wishin'
    Praise the Lord we're all between perdition
    and the deep blue sea!

    Yes the sky pilot said it
    You've got to give him credit
    for a son - of - gun - of - a - gunner was he,
    Shouting;
    Praise the Lord we're on a mighty mission!
    All aboard, we're not a - goin' fishin;
    Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition and we'll all stay free!
     

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