I can accept things being in the deep dark shadow world we will never really know. Nowhere in the reports, nor in my representation of them is there an implication of the Israelis perpetrating 911. We did note that they seem to have had informatuion they chose not to share. Most likely. BUT..lumping indignation over the Liberty attack with the same brush as holocaust denial is OUTRAGEOUS! Israel killed 34 American sailors in a protracted attack on a well marked vessel. Their explination was bullshit and our acceptance was cowardly. There is deep dark in this one too and it appears well never know the real reason Johnson groveled. Deny that. And another thing. The manner in which the US treats foreign spies is not a matter for anyone other than an American.
Why are you quoting me from WR? Do you what WR is? Do you know what kind of things people say on WR??? You making a quote from one my posts on WR is irrelevant and trolling , stick to the subject , its not hard.
This coming from someone who has replied and read many of posts and still thinks most Iranian support the IRI government , your intelligence has surprised me once again, how low will you get on your next reply?
During the recent Lebanon war the Isreali Government put a bounty on Hezbollah fighters. This drew out of retirement ecery middle aged ex-reservist in Israel, including two accountants from Tefen, Shlomo and Shmuel. Being out of shape and practice Shlomo fell asleep during his watch only to be awakened by a noise in his ear. Opening his eyes he saw a Hezbollah fighter pionting an AK-74 at his face. glancing around he saw 100 other Hezbollah rifles cocked, locked and trigger fingers itching. 'Shmuel!", hd said, nudging his sleeping partner, "Shmuel, wake up. Were rich"
You don't get it. I'm sure its nice and all that you don't like Iran's regime. But we don't get to deal with you, we have to deal with the theocrats in power in Iran. If you don't like Iran's government, change it. Then we'll be THRILLED to open a dialogue with you. You think Israel wants Iran for an enemy? Iran and Israel are natural allies - neither likes the Arabs overmuch. In fact, they were allies for a considerable amount of time. There are plenty of Persian Jews, even a few remnants in Iran itself. Most Iranians on BigSoccer, incidentally, seem to support what Iran is doing. Odd, that.
Odd indeed. Then again, it's also odd that most Israelis/Jews on BS seem to be quite comfortable to support what Israel is doing. Funnily enough, none of this remotely reflects the views of Israelis/Jews and Iranians I have met through my work, so I must conclude that BS and my kind of work attract very different people. Surprising.
Out of curiosity, what were the views of the Israelis/Jews you've met on the subject of supporting Israel?
My friends from Israel (all 4 of them were officers in the army btw, if I understood them correctly, although they only served 3 years or so in the army, which seems quite short to become an officer) think Isreal should withdraw from the occupied territories [sic] and retreat back to the pre 1967 borders. BTW, I would differentiate between 'support Israel' and 'support what Israel is doing'. It's not necessarily the same thing. Think Nazi Germany, for an extreme example.
First of all , lets not forget who caused all this to happen , it was the British , you live in the United Kingdom , you should know. When our country was Democratic and enjoyed a short lived Democracy the British came up with plans to organize a coup and they succeeded with the help of the CIA . And they did it for what? Oil , it was all because of oil , the British government decided to ruin million of Iranians hopes and dreams so that its people could get cheap oil , is this justice? ever since then no one in Iran trusts the British , and you cant blame them. All the political tension on Iran right now is because of oil , nothing has changed since the CIA coup , and this time they are using Iran’s nuclear energy program as a pretext and its sad to see so many countries fall into these traps once again , and countries like Israel are even making the situation worse. And like I said , most Iranians hate the Islamic Republic , the Iranian government is not Persian , they are acting like Arabs , the government of Iran is more popular amongst Arabs then it is in Iran. As far as Iran and Israel being natural allies , I don’t think that’s true , they are not enemies , but not allies either . I would say Iranians opinion towards Israel is like Turkeys opinion towards Israel , I don’t think people would protest normalizing relationships with Israel but they certainly wouldn’t support Israel if she attacked Lebanon like it did last month. And people in Iran are against a war , if a war happens in Iran we will all unite , it will be a bad thing for all parties involved , a war will not solve anything , it will only make the mullahs stronger, if change happens in Iran it will happen with the people not with force. Iran right now is going through a historic political and intellectual stage, people are beginning to speak up against the government , writers are openly attacking the clerics , even some mullahs are attacking other mullahs , there is a political renaissance taking place in Iran right now and sooner or later this government will change but no one should disrupt this by starting a war or even placing sanctions , both those things will only favor the mullahs
So they don't think Jerusalen should be part of Israel? I know some Jews like that too, but fortunately they only speak for very small minority of the Jewish people and even less for Israelis. (In 1967 Six-Day War, Israel captured East Jerusalem and the all-important Old City from Jordanians)
Yes, I think that's what they mean. By captured you mean invaded? Why is the old city all-important? I have to admit that I usually discuss work, mathematical puzzles or chess problems with them, rather than politics. But I value their opinion very highly, and they don't give the impression of being politically naive.
Not like you to so badly miss the point. Iranians complain they shouldn't be tarred with Ahmedinejad's brush because they don't like the regime. I've no problem with Ehud Olmert, a democratically elected PM. (And one who's not answerable to a panel of all powerful rabbis.) Not really. This does reflect the opinions of Jews and Iranians I've met.
I'm not British, and lets get one thing straight. While I agree that taking out Mossadeq was the wrong thing to do, he was not a "democrat". He certainly didn't have the respect for individual rights one would expect a democrat to have. People eulogize Mossadeq so much few remember much about him at all. Bullshit. Israel has nothing against Iran. Iran threatens Israel, Israel threatens back, Iran complains. Once again, if Iran stops waving its sword in Israel's direction, Israel will stop too. Its entirely within Iran's power to stop the hostile interaction. What has changed over the past 25 years that has caused the relationship to deteriorate? Is it Iran or Israel? Pretty clearly, its Iran. If you want to normalize relations with Israel, quit with the stupid anti-Holocaust agenda. Its pointless. And its not about oil at the moment. Its about the nukes. Don't you understand that US companies would be far happier if they were allowed to do business with Iran? All that oil's got to be refined by someone, and Iran hasn't got the know how or the capacity. Exxon Mobil is just itching to get at it. Its entirely up to Iran to normalize relations. Stop selling Hizbullah weapons. You keep saying that, but who won the Presidential election? Wrong. Turkey is Israel's oldest ally in the region, and the attitudes of Turks towards Israel are far more positive than those of Iran. So we should let the current government develop nukes? Oh, gosh, what a nice solution that is. People deserve the government they have.
That's a silly answer, because it lacks context, and you know this. Do they think Israel should do this unilaterally or that this should be a land for peace exchange? I'm happy giving up 99% of the West Bank too for security, sure. But how do you plan to guarantee it? Israel left Lebanon, and Hizbullah kept attacking.
Because it contains the holiest site in Judaism (which, I should add, Jews were prohibited from visiting when it was held by the Jordanians).
This is just plain silly. Staring from a by BS standards reasonably well-defined argument, where we talk about <most-X-on-here> and <X-I've-met>, you steer into fog by using <Iranians> and <I>. I am afraid it's you who, I suspect intentionally, badly missed the point this time. As for your second comment, I believe we have different kinds of jobs? Your job seems to be more BS-like then mine, if I may paraphrase you.
It has nothing to do with my job, and you're really missing my point. The comparison here is not valid, because the issue isn't "Iranians supporting what the regime is doing". Its that any Iranians say that at all. No Jew I've ever met says "I don't like the Israeli regime".
To be honest, I really don't know. I was just quoting what my friends from Israel said. They are nerds like us and as such maybe a bit too theoretical and don't take enough care of realpolitik. Then again, we know that the current politics of aggression/aggressive defending is not working. It's well possible that there is no stable fixed point, but I would like to explore the parameter space a bit more. You can't possibly claim that current Israeli poliltics look very promising.
We've met different jews, then. Like I said, due to different jobs? What exactly do you mean by regime, anyway?
So now you’re the expert on Dr. Mosadagh? He didn’t have respect for individual rights? He wasn’t Democratic? The CIA alleged that Mosadagh was communist as a pretext , he was not a communist. Your clueless about Mosadagh , I was wrong about you , you have brought yourself to the lowest level , your comments are childish and laughable. You don’t know 2 shittts about Mosadagh or the CIA coup , go educate yourself about the topic before you makes such dumb posts [quote[ Bullshit. Israel has nothing against Iran. Iran threatens Israel, Israel threatens back, Iran complains. Once again, if Iran stops waving its sword in Israel's direction, Israel will stop too. Its entirely within Iran's power to stop the hostile interaction. What has changed over the past 25 years that has caused the relationship to deteriorate? Is it Iran or Israel? Pretty clearly, its Iran. If you want to normalize relations with Israel, quit with the stupid anti-Holocaust agenda. Its pointless. [/quote]Do you think these war of the words only come from one side? Stop being biased, Israel has made verbal attacks against Iran and threaten to attack Iran many times. I laugh at people who think Ahamdinejad denial of the holocaust will lead to Iran attacking the Israeli nation , Ahmadinejad has no power in Iran , he can decide to attack a country , he is just a figure in the government . And lets not forget who the agressors is the in the Middle East right now , Israel just attacked Lebanon and has occupied parts of Syria and has no respect for other countries sovereignty This is about oil and politics , its not about nukes , those who don’t understand this are stupid . If Iran has nukes then produce some evidence , there is no evidence that point to Iran trying to develop nukes, the US intelligence is false , they alleged Saddam had WMD’S , they alleged that Iraq was hiding its chemical weapons in Niger which was proven to be false , and we now know that the White House had plans to attack Iraq even if they didn’t have WMD’S , the decision was made before all those WMD’S allegation . My point is that the US has bad track record and that no one should listen to the lies of the White House and Israel . Most the people didn’t even bother to vote and no ones knows if the elections were fair , and those who did vote for Ahmadinejad were members of the Basiji which has 150,000 members in Iran and poor people who only wanted a better economy. And I am actually glad Ahamdinejad won the elections , because people are really getting frustrated about him , this could lead to protest and more pressure on the government domestically which is the best thing. You surprised me once again , lol , you really believe all Iranian went out and voted for this guy , it reminds of when the dumb ass Bush got re elected , a British news paper made a headline the next day saying ( how could ******* people be so dumb ) I forgot exact number. You accuse the Iranian people of electing a moron which most of whom didn’t even vote and yet in the US people voted for the one of the dumbest ruthless leaders 2 times in a row, a Texan cowboy who loves the smell of oil and who is willing to kill people for the black gold. Wrong again , name on Turk who is mentioned in the Torah, Cyrus the Great a Persian the first Achaemenian king of ancient Persia is mentioned in the Torah . And even during the ERA of Muhammad Reza Shah , Iran and Israel were the closes allies in the region . The Turkish government might be loyal to the Israeli government buts its people don’t share that sentiment , you don’t nothing about the region , why do Turks always protest against Israel when Israel does something wrong? Like I said , Persians and Turks share the same opinion towards the state of Israel . I suggest you to start reading books about the history of the Middle East before pretending you’re a expert at it , because your making yourself look like a clown right now . So we should let the current government develop nukes? Oh, gosh, what a nice solution that is. People deserve the government they have.[/QUOTE]