Is Zico, not Maradona, the second best player?ever?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Izzy9, Jul 19, 2011.

  1. Zlatko2010

    Zlatko2010 Member

    Mar 16, 2013
    By your logic arthur friedenreich is the best of all time?:D
     
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  2. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England




    [Everyone knows that it's actually Arthur Rowley... ;)]
     
  3. Zlatko2010

    Zlatko2010 Member

    Mar 16, 2013
    ;)
     
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  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In the McIlvanney book (the 1995 edition, which I found recently, as said in another thread) I read a quote by Menotti and Maradona (March 1982) that fits within the theme of this thread. Not something new, but just a confirmation of what has been said before by various people here.

     
  5. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Zico was a great latent and he also got a great team *Brazil NT to support him in his best form.
    Maradona was a bit less fortunate with his time for Argentina (in 80's)

    They both played deep and advance position ... and the difference is their team mates. Look at Maradona at young ages while playing for Argentinos JR and Boca ... his goals per game was like any top top striker (similar to Zico for Bortafogo of late 70's)
     
  6. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England


    [Or is it Alick Jeffrey? ;)]
     
  7. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil

    What the heck!?!?
     
  8. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Nice catch ... I was just discussed Graaincha in other post ...
     
  9. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    The flamengo player from the 80s?
     
  10. worms

    worms Red Card

    Mar 28, 2013
    Club:
    FC Barcelona

    :ROFLMAO:

    And lol at the OP and 1 or 2 others who say Zico had better passing ability than Maradona, please don't even go there.

    Also lol at the argument of Zico scoring more goals in the weak Brazilian league, compared to the league with the best defenses in history (Serie A of the 80's and 90's).

    As for the question of the 2nd best player ever, I don't know, but it's definitely not Maradona because he was the best ever.
     
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  11. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    weak Brazilian league in the 80s'.... your comment is invalid
     
  12. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    LOL to your limit knowledge! For your info
    - Zico was NEVER inferior in passing ability to Maradona. Maradona was more famous and efficient followed his WC86 and his Napoli fame.

    - Did NOT you realize (may be you should know)
    1- Zico was close to be SeireA topscorer in 84? just 1 goal shy from Platini (who had 3 more games played)?
    2 - Zico was on course to be the BEST player (and wining goldenboot) at WC82 (before his team collapsed by Rossi's hat trick) with 4goals+4ass/5games!
    3- Zico got the BEST GPG as a FW/AM in national team shirt 52goals/72games (yes much higher than Platini/Maradona/Bobby Charton ... with more or less same position) Here obviously Maradona got the worst team along side among them all to be fair!
     
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  13. SirWellingtonSilva

    May 30, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Was reading through the start of this thread and just noticed this

    Thought that's interesting, because didn't he do the same thing 4 years later against the same opponent and marker in the world cup final?
     
  14. SirWellingtonSilva

    May 30, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Anyway thought its noteworthy as the final is deemed a underperformance by him for some people. A lot of players have got legendary status for being able to stay out of a match and then make the killer moment when it matters. Here he deliberately moved out of position and uninvolved himself from the game which freed up his teammates at the expense of making the play himself, and then made a decisive moment when it mattered. This is a strong argument against the perception some have about him being selfish or not a team player imo.
     
  15. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I know that this was posted a long time ago but i'm interested did you use strict or loose criteria for assists, did you count rebounds and things like that?
     
  16. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    those ones
    good point - I think they look ok ... for Assists

    However those are just blind stats ... For example
    Messi could have made 4 assists in a thrashing game (meaningless) where Barca screwed their opponent 6-0 win (or Messi could scored a hatr tcik in a 5-0 win game )
    While Maradona could have pulled only one ass but that assissted to winning goal of a 1-0 game
    (while Maradona might score a goal in 2-1 win)

    So number is just number - besides the important things: how strong your team are and how eak your opponents are

    Barca of Messi 09-13 ranked #1 (worst #3) >>>> Napoli of Maradona (ranked 70+ or even outside TOP100 in his time)
     
  17. Jaweirdo

    Jaweirdo Member+

    Aug 19, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I dont disagree with what was said about Maradona and Zico but I feel like phrases like "let the game flow through his teammates, when things weren't working out for him" are the kinds of things you'd associate with laziness, and not trying hard enough if you were to hear about it nowadays regarding Messi or CR7
     
  18. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Well we can look at where they had goals and assists and how many points that brought to their team. As for the ability of teammates to score i completely agree.
     
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  19. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I was especially curious about 1989-90 season because by this it looks like his best season, but i wasn't aware that he played that good in that season.
     
  20. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #870 Bada Bing, Jan 11, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2015
    Because the objective was to check the influence on goal scoring, on the results, I used wide rules. Wide rules portray better this, and passing quality isn't on comparison.

    Also player points are result of taking direct influence (G+A) off, and comparing results mathematically. In a long term it gives good idea of average influence on results.

    Here's more thorough list:

    [​IMG]

    Few points how to read this, 84-85 may seem like the best year percentage wise, but you have to take team position also into account. It shows if the player was a really big fish in a big bond, or rather big fish in a small bond, as it easier to be bigger part of a small team, than a big team. Other than that, percentage of goals and points involved should be the ones which show relative influence the best.
     
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  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Can you give a full assists list for Maradona? I don't think he had 8 in 1984-85.
     
  22. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Those are league statistics, as it's the best, most constant way to compare influence. I don't have full statistics.
     
  23. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Thank you very much, but where did you watch all goals i found on yt only 1989-90 season.
     
  24. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Napoli goals are pretty much all on youtube (or dailymotion) on that period, you have to go game by game basis which I did.
     
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  25. stcv1974

    stcv1974 Member

    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Yeah i know that there are a lot of games of Napoli but i didn't think that you went through all of them, i thought that you found some compilations. Great job, man! Really great!! :thumbsup::thumbsup:
     

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