Is Ukraine about to explode?

Russia had two of those, if you remember: 1991 and 1993. Now you are calling them sheep.

The truth is Ukrainians don't want democracy and freedom. Both parties want things to be their way, come hell or high water. The only difference between them and Russians is that they are more active today, since they are experiencing the kind of social catharsis Russia had 11 years ago.

 

Perhaps. It just happens to be true in this case. How much more legitimate is Yuschenko than Janukovich, considering his horrific election fraud in the West? The people rioting in the streets aren't rioting for Democracy, they're rioting because their cheating proved a little less successful. No one in this election has remotely clean hands.

 

That was 11 and 13 years ago.

Nonsense. The people in Ukraine want accountable and honest governing.

It's just that too many people feel like they are powerless to bring about change, they basically, like nicephoras, deeply distrust anyone in power there, and feel like no matter who wins they will be screwed.

 

Exactly, this is how far Russia is ahead of Ukraine in recognizing its true national character.

I just don't believe that. I do believe that some people in Ukraine want Russian to be the second national language. And some others want speaking Russian to be a punishable offence. I believe that some Ukrainians want to lower the prices of food and some want to raise the pensions. I believe that some Ukrainians believe one of the candidates will bring them prosperity while the others believe that the other candidate will bring them security.
And they believe in it strongly enough to let things like freedom and democracy go to hell.

The Rada is convening as we speak with about half the deputees needed for the quorum. All of them are Yushchenko supporters, complete with orange scarves. Accountable and honest? Right!

 

Which suggests that arguing over elections is no more part of a national identity than having a good soccer team. Both are so transient that they can't be part of your national identity.

Rubbish. If they did, they wouldn't cheat in order to get it. You do see the inherent contradiction in cheating and subverting the system to get the "honest and accountable" candidate into office?
It reminds me of that hilarious Oliver North campaign for Senate in Virginia when he ran as an honest candidate because he admitted he lied.

Distrust the people in power? They're all former party apparatchiks! Why in the world would I trust them to do anything given the state of affairs in western Ukraine? Yuschenko cheated horribly, just not as well as Janukovich! And you're pretending as if this is a move towards democracy! Its not. Until Ukraine matures enough to really want democracy, rather than cheating to have the slightly less authoritarian thief in power, this will all be moot.

 

This, of course, is non other than Yushchenko, taking the oath of office on a 300-year-old Bible in front of his supporters.
The beacon of democracy and freedom that he is, Viktor the Wannabe Victor did it despite the fact that the Rada announced no decision on the election results (it couldn't, there was no quorum) and right after warning the government that non-recognition of his victory would lead to "civil unrest".

Mmmm, that's good liberalism.

 

To people who say Ukrainians have no identity…
Where did there language come from? Isn’t that a good base for national identity?


I personally would like to see them back with Russia , would make for a better league.

 

Evidently, not good enough, as all of their classical literature is written in Russian.

 

But most people communicate in Ukrainian, right?

 

Depends on where you go. In Donetsk or Lugansk you are not likely to find anyone able to string together two proper Ukrainian sentenses.
Besides, it's not the point of the discussion. I am not saying they are not Ukrainian, I am saying their national identity is that of Sovoks.

I, personally, am all for the development of the Ukrainian language, if only because it sounds so humorous to the Russian ear.

HAMLETENKO: "Buty chi ne buty, o de zakovyka!"

 

Come on Shurik - has good old Soviet Russia where the road drives you not taught you about euphemisms?
When we say riot with looting, Ukranians say "freedom rally". When we say "clearly illegal grab for power after cheating like crazy in an election while claiming to be more pro-West than the other thief" Ukranians say "honest election". When we say "scary totalitarian former Communist party member who will only steal 2/3rds of the treasury while smiling fatuously at the West", Ukranians say "liberal".

 

Yushchenko's "swearing in" ceremony (damn it, Kuchma's term isn't even officially over yet!) took place after the Rada session was over. The speaker of the Rada addressed the 191 deputees, all Yushchenko supporters (226 are needed for the quorum) that "there would be no swearing in, please stop this comedy" and walked out.
This lead to the Yushchenkites' imrpovised ceremony.
Right now Yushchenko and his minions are literally storming the presidential residence in Kiev, trying to move him in!

Freedom on the march, I guess.

 

Emm dude don't speak about things you know nothing about.

 

It's called a revolution (peaceful to this point -- 2 days now). As the founding fathers of America have said, sometimes a revolution is the right way forward to creating a better, yes, more liberal society.

 

Do tell me, which classical literature is written in Ukranian?

 

Emm, dude, don't speak about things you know nothing about. I keeed. Sort of.
This isn't a revolution. Yushchenko cheated like mad to win the election, has no regard for the democratic process, and then demanded to be crowned President before Kuchma's term was even up. And his supporters aren't cheering for democracy, they're cheering for him, Democracy be damned. They would, all of them, gladly trade the sanctity of the democratic process for his victory, mostly because the concept of the sanctity of the democratic process is utterly alien and foreign to them.
This isn't a US style revoultion; its a coup de etat. I must have missed Yushchenko's famous exhortations to democracy while I was busy marveling at the returns from western Ukraine. 100% of people voted for Yushchenko, with a 95% turnout, eh? I believe that.

 

A national identity is an elusive and vague thing. What's Sweden's national identity based on? Or Korean? A national identity usually comes from common language, literature, and history, and the current events are another part of forging that identity. I don't know when you moved to the States, but I personally don't remember any other time when such masses took to the streets in Kiev -- and most demonstrators are from Kiev, shockingly -- for anything other than a Dynamo match. I think that people are done being puppets/sheep, and unless they will be beaten ruthlessly into submission (which I just do not see happening in Ukraine under any government) this is a change in mentality that will last.

It's not moot or pointless. The current environment is so rotten (and has been for most of history) that there will of course be cheating and corruption whenever you deal with the system. And no one claims that Yuschenko is the second coming of JC.

However, the fact that the people have (arguably) voted out a sitting government in a post-Soviet state -- that's a first, and that's a gigantic step forward.

Moreover, people actually care about their leadership now, and will have expectations toward the new leadership. You can't emphasize that point enough. People CARE, the pervasive fatalism is, for now, gone.

That means that no, the government won't be able to sh1t all over them anymore. I don't at all share your attitude of "eh it's all the same".

Absolutely, there is a risk of (a) that the protestors will fail, and the Kuchma people will strengthen their grip even more turning Ukraine into Russia/Belorussia, or (b) the opposition government will fail if it gets into power, and will be just as corrupt. Both would be outcomes tragic for the nation.

 

Emm Kotliarevsky, Skovoroda, Shevchenko, Lesya Ukrainka, Franko, Nechuy-Levitsky, Kotsiubynsky, Honchar, and so on.

 

Linkage?

 

And you'd have to read Gogol, all the Odessans, and everyone else in translation? What a giant waste. The above are a pittance.

 

You're disputing Yushchenko's election fraud? Oh dear.

 

100% turnout? 95% for Yuschenko? Linkage please.

 

LOL. You mean like Russia's lasted in 93 and 96? Come on.

If they were really different. Which they aren't.

Puhleeeeeze! We don't even have that in the US! Considering how Yushchenko got into power, what makes you think he'll respect democracy at all?

 

Emm Gogol was the only classical Ukrainian writers who actually wrote in Russian. If you are not a fan of the writers I listed, that's fine by me, but point stands that classical Ukrainian literature was written in Ukrainian.

And some of it is actually VERY VERY good, but tastes are tastes.

There would be even more output, if Ukrainian language wasn't banned, repressed, or bastardized by the czars and the communists.

 

It's a pointless argument we're having here, as you're basically saying that it's been sh1t over there for 1,000 years, it will keep being sh1t. Well, yea, I guess history is kind of on your side, but that would suggest that nothing will EVER get better there. But your assertions that Yuschenko will be just more of the same don't really have any solid basis in fact, just pure speculation.

And remind me, what happened in Russia in '96?