Is there an era in which either Europe or S-A was truly dominant ?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by tony-soprano37, Sep 24, 2013.

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  1. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
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    #126 Pipiolo, Oct 1, 2013
    Cruyff is a greater player than Schiaffino to the history of football.
     
  2. tony-soprano37

    tony-soprano37 Member

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
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    England
    #127 tony-soprano37, Oct 1, 2013
    hahahahahaha

    you have lsot all credibility man.

    so cruyff was not as great as schiafino and puskas also not ebcause they did not win the big one ?

    i explained it a few times gonna say it again. you also can run in soem bad luck or have som good luck.
    how a bout a player from a small nation ?
    he will never ever achieve somethign with hsi nations becasue its small.
    example george best (not sayign best ransk amongst the gusy you mentioned also not sayign eh doesn't. just an example)
     
  3. tony-soprano37

    tony-soprano37 Member

    Dec 5, 2008
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    AFC Ajax
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    #128 tony-soprano37, Oct 1, 2013
    in terms of pound for pound rankings louis and ali don't rank amonsgt the 10 best ever imo.
    memebrs of the top 10 (in no particular order)
    sugar ray robinson
    harry greb
    henry armstrong
    ezzard charles
    roberto duran
     
  4. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    #129 comme, Oct 1, 2013
    Given this has now evolved into a boxing thread, Joe Calzaghe retired have won every one of his 46 fights.

    Apparently after Rocky Marciano, Ji Won Kim, Terry Marsh, Pichit Sitbangprachan, Harry Simon, Ricardo Lopez, Michael Loewe and Sven Ottke did likewise.
     
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  5. guri

    guri Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    #130 guri, Oct 1, 2013

    I have my opinion, you have yours. That's all.
    And I don't base my opinion on whether "something is worth talking about it" or not in this forum.
    Just the facts as I see them. And I bet you and everyone here have a different set of facts.
     
  6. puertorricane

    puertorricane Red Card

    Feb 4, 2012
    Carolina PR
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    Santos FC
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    #131 puertorricane, Oct 1, 2013
    Well I was thinking mainly on all time greats none of those boxers are considered all time greats other than maybe finito lopez. Calzaghe fought his entire career in europe vs nobodies.




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  7. guri

    guri Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    #132 guri, Oct 1, 2013
    I believe that I covered that in my previous post.
     
  8. guri

    guri Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    #133 guri, Oct 1, 2013
    so Hungary and the Netherlands are smaller nations than Uruguay?
    :confused:
     
  9. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
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    #134 Pipiolo, Oct 1, 2013
    Rocky Marciano as well.

    I don't think you made a clear point though.
     
  10. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    #135 comme, Oct 1, 2013
    That's right. Those great nobodies Roy Jones Jr and Bernard Hopkins were beaten in the Welsh mining towns of New York and Las Vegas.
     
  11. guri

    guri Member+

    Apr 10, 2002
    #136 guri, Oct 1, 2013
    I said in response to somebody else: "I have my opinion, you have yours. That's all.
    And I don't base my opinion on whether "something is worth talking about it" or not in this forum.
    Just the facts as I see them. And I bet you and everyone here have a different set of facts."

    Seems clear enough to me.
     
  12. puertorricane

    puertorricane Red Card

    Feb 4, 2012
    Carolina PR
    Club:
    Santos FC
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    #137 puertorricane, Oct 1, 2013

    LOL you actually going to give Calzaghe credit for an old over the hill Jones that lost three straight fights two by KO before fighting him? Plus the Hopkins fight was a gift since he lost in the eyes of the majority of neutral fans.




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  13. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
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    Boca Juniors
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    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
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    #138 Moishe, Oct 1, 2013
    I mostly have no problem with the names you mentioned though I find it curious that in your opinion Louis and Ali aren't even top ten material yet Ring Magazine ranked them three and four all time. I recognize it is your opinion but I am curious as to why the arguably two best heavyweights of all time aren't even pound for pound in the top ten.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #139 PuckVanHeel, Oct 1, 2013
    What should the Klitschkos do before reaching that upper tier?
     
  15. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
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    Boca Juniors
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    #140 Moishe, Oct 1, 2013
    I am really not sure what they themselves can do. It's not like they can control the quality of their opponents. Today's heavyweight division is more full of punchers than actual technical boxers. Also the further back you go you will see differences in the fight game with regards to the frequency in which fighters fought and little of it had to do with the financial aspect like it does today.

    I personally feel the two are solid technical boxers albeit lacking in as all around skills (jab, ability to punch with both hands and variety of angles from which they can punch....uppercuts hooks, straight, looping....) Put them in the heavyweight division in the 80's and I think they definitely had the punchers chance to win titles though if their opponents had the jaw to sustain that kind of power then they would have problems.

    While many consider the 80's the hay day for the heavyweight division it wasn't so much due to the abundance of great fighters, it was more to do with the more rounded skill set those guys tried to fight with. The truth is that boxing is one of the few sports in which you can make comparisons of how certain fighters would perform in different times.

    In time I believe the Klitschko brothers will get their due.
     
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  16. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator
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    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Mar 6, 2005
    Here there and everywhere.
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
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    #141 Moishe, Oct 1, 2013
    Since this thread has taken a turn (even Comme acknowledged and contributed) it is worth noting that boxing may be the only sport where losses or lack/frequency of titles is not necessarily held against the legend of an individual fighter.
     
  17. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    #142 msioux75, Oct 1, 2013
    The thread opener himself, also talks about Boxing :eek: :thumbsdown: :D
     
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  18. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    #143 Perú FC, Oct 1, 2013
    From my point of view, I think these are the South American who had a greater impact than Schiaffino:
    • Pelé (3 World Cups)
    • Diego Maradona (1 World Cup)
    • Alfredo Di Stéfano (0 World Cups)
    • Garrincha (2 World Cups)
    • Zico (0 World Cups)
    • Ronaldo (2 World Cups)
    • Lionel Messi (0 World Cups)
    • José Manuel Moreno (0 World Cups)
    • Zizinho (0 World Cups)
    • Didí (2 World Cups)
    • Romário (1 World Cup)
    And these are the South American who I'd rate at a similar ratio:
    • Rivelino (1 World Cup)
    • Adolfo Pedernera (0 World Cups)
    • Ronaldinho (1 World Cup)
    • Rivaldo (1 World Cup)
    • Héctor Scarone (1 World Cup)
    • Daniel Passarella (2 World Cups)
    • Elías Figueroa (0 World Cups)
    • Teófilo Cubillas (0 World Cups)
    • Omar Sívori (0 World Cups)
    • Leonidas (0 World Cups)
    • José Leandro Andrade (1 World Cup)
    • Jairzinho (1 World Cup)
     
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  19. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #144 JamesBH11, Oct 1, 2013
    Very good list Peru.
    Again, I am not so sure of Laeonidas, and Pedernera... but to my experience talking to many of older "brazilian fans in Brazil" they rated them higher than Schiaffino and about the same as Zico Zizinho ...
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #145 PuckVanHeel, Oct 2, 2013
    What makes you think that Zizinho had categorically a greater impact?

    If I look at old encyclopaedias, Schiaffino receives more space and praise. Maybe because he played in Europe. About Zizinho it isn't said that he was the best Brazilian before Pelé came along btw. This is said about Friedenreich; seen as the best Brazilian forward of all-time until Pelé arrived.
     
  21. Breitner'sWig

    Breitner'sWig Member

    Apr 24, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
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    #146 Breitner'sWig, Oct 2, 2013
    You might want to clarify your opinion then as all you've posted is that scores matter and everything else is basically irrelevant. Idle talk as you put it.

    It seems to me like you came in with a big statement and then backed down citing different opinions. Fair enough, it only makes implications of the weakness of your initial point.
     
  22. tony-soprano37

    tony-soprano37 Member

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
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    #147 tony-soprano37, Oct 2, 2013
    like the title says pound for pound.
    its tough to make the top 10 for a heavyweight because mostly they only fight in heavyweight division.
    take for exampel guys like duran or greb or armstrong multiple champons in different divisons when the divisions where still filled with strong opponents.
    i have no problem with people ranking ali or louis in the top 10 only in my mind they rank between 10 and 20 on a pound for pound list.
    for example a guy like benny leonard or willie pep or a guy like archie moore the old mongest deserves a top 10 spot more then ali or louis.
     
  23. tony-soprano37

    tony-soprano37 Member

    Dec 5, 2008
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    #148 tony-soprano37, Oct 2, 2013
    good list.
    but personally i think figueroa shoudl be rated above schiafino
     
  24. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
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    #149 Pipiolo, Oct 2, 2013
    Very good list but I would but Schiaffino at least on par with Zizinho (the Uruguayan also reached another WC semifinal and won a couple of Copa Americas). Jairzinho is a tad overrated, don't forget he was basically irrelevant at WCs 66 and 74. Arthur Friendenreich is a better choice. I would include Sastre, N Santos, Varela, Fillol and possibly Bochini in that second group.
     
  25. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    #150 Perú FC, Oct 2, 2013
    From the perspective of the popularity, probably because he was a 40's player and, as many South American of that decade (Moreno, Pedernera, Loustau, Pontoni, Danilo Alvim, Perucca or Jair (da Rosa)), weren't widely covered by European in a time of war. By the way, I'm not sure what old encyclopedias are you referring, but I couldn't say many reliable sources refers to Friedenreich as the best Brazilian forward until Pelé emerged, especially since he's often first considered a player of an amateur era without superb skills and the appearance of Leonidas at 30's, the first Brazilian forward who reached world prestige and introduced to Brazil the idea of a fantasy player with great technical skills, tricks and moves.

    What I know, first Leonidas and then Zizinho were considered the best Brazilian players of all-time before Pelé wherever I read or hear. There are also some European journalists at that time like Giordano Fatori and Willy Meisl that after the 1950 World Cup surrendered to Zizinho and a chapter with the Spanish coach, referee and journalist Pedro Escartín in the book Lo de Brasil fue así... that portrayed Brazil as art football on the feet of Zizinho, the greatest Brazilian player of all-time.

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/player-profile-zizinho.232236/
    http://www.theguardian.com/news/2002/feb/12/guardianobituaries.alexbellos
     
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