Not shocked that international playing time is high at many top programs, as has been discussed forever, but a few of these are wild (see Missouri State). I don't begrudge international players seeing opportunities and taking them, but man ... 📊 Playing Time & International Student Athletes: RPI Top 40 D1 Men's College Soccer Programs #CSData #CollegeSoccer #StudentAthlete #CSTruth #Recruited pic.twitter.com/PRX8E4vXiT— Play College Soccer (@PlayCollegeSoc) November 6, 2023
Pretty shocking. I mean it’s one thing if a private university wants to load up on foreign players. But to see public schools like Marshall and Missouri St. use their taxpayers’ dollars to run such mercenary programs. Kinda shameful.
I strongly disagree. Having spoken to several athletes to see where they are coming from, their life story is no different that American football players coming from Florida to WV. Most international players are cut or age out of their U20's academy without getting a pro contract from their home club. Then along comes and a coach who says for the next four years they can continue to develop their game, get a university degree, and get one more shot at playing pro ball. I see it as no different that our postgrad medical school, which is competitive to get into and is also much more international than our population. I see it as no different than our football program, which has 3 starters from our state and then recruits heavily in the southeast. This is a competitive scholarship sport - let those 9.9 scholarships go to the best athlete that is eligible and qualified to get it. As a result of Marshall's recent improve quality, our attendance has gone from 100 to 3,000 per game. Interest in soccer has grown in our region. Marshall soccer is now a ticketed event. Finally, I'll point to our coach, Chris Grassie. Born and raised in England, he came to West Virginia to play at D-II Alderson-Broaddus. He got a grad assistant job at Marshall, married a girl from West Virginia, and after two assistant coaching stops found his way to Charleston where he turned them into a D-II powerhouse. He's now done the same thing to Marshall, and he has started to develop his own coaching tree who are having their own success at multiple schools. His family is now here, his impact is here, and he's changed the face of the sport in our area. This shows anyone can become a Son of Marshall no matter where one is originally from.
Well apparently not *everyone* can become a Son of Marshall. US players pretty much need not apply. What does Grassie have against US-born players? Why does he feel like he has to recruit almost exclusively overseas? Does he feel like he can’t win with American players? And what does that say about his coaching?
Many of the foreign born players are older as well. I know one instance of a 23 yr old sophomore and a 25yr old senior. That is much different than your 18yr old US born freshman graduating at 21yrs. Many US born players get passed up because they come from a club like PDA and not one from Europe. Many cases they are just as good.
Top US players are not going to go live in Huntington WV for 4 years over schools like Notre Dame, UCLA, Clemson, UNC, Stanford, Duke, UVA, Indiana, Maryland to name a few who will be recruiting them. These are much better schools academically and in better areas. Grassie recruits abroad because they are the best players he can get. Do marshall even have a grass field or is it Turf.....that's another factor. Who wants to play on turf most weeks over grass? I personally hated turf but only the big time schools could afford to maintain the grass.
The playing-time-by-year numbers are interesting. I'd have guessed teams that rely heavily on international players might play more freshmen since a lot of those players come in at 20 or older, but there doesn't seem to be a clear trend among these schools. FIU, Syracuse and Bryant -- all heavily reliant on internationals -- haven't given freshmen a minute this season. And Kentucky, which gives most of its minutes to domestic players, gives more minutes to freshmen than any other group. I'd be curious about the degree to which some or all of these schools change these patterns from year to year -- I'm guessing Kentucky has a nice freshman class that, three years from now, will be a great group of seniors playing a lot of minutes.
Again, you are guessing without facts. We had a native West Virginian start at CB on our national championship (Collin Mocyunas). We currently have a hometown product in the rotation at midfield (Ryan Holmes). If a local kid can play at this level, Grassie has brought them in. You say he's recruiting exclusively overseas, yet a quarter of our roster is American. At the end of the day, his objective is to win - which he has done better than any other coach in the country over the last 4 seasons.
Remember if you promise athletic money many coaches feel obligated to play scholarship players over non scholarship.. CalPoly had to make a reverse on those they eliminated scholarships from.. in the end they played the players..
This was the case at my son's school this year--where the coach played a freshman international GK who gave up 2-3 goals almost every game he played rather than a grad student. The grad student won every game that he played the whole game--they were the only games the team won all season. Son said the international GK was probably full scholarship. Coach wanted to get his money's worth...
A coach's priorities are to win, develop players and provide a healthy culture (no scandals coming out of the program). If a coach can win with international players, fine, If he can get domestic blue chippers, that is fine too. I find that a coach becomes a lot smarter if he has more talented players. If little Johnny can't get on the local college team or get the minutes, too bad. Go to a smaller school. Parents are the worst part about college soccer - it's why many academies have excluded them from participation. Their bias in watching the game is demonstrated by their verbal complaints, etc. Last thing about Marshall, I'm not a Marshall fan but I was at the match on Sunday and had an interesting conversation with a die-hard Marshall fan who has 2 small children (i.e., no student-athlete). She stated, that in Huntington (like much in Appalachia) is typically a very homogeneous community and that infusion of international players adds to the diversity for the betterment of the student body. Marshall has successfully built a nice program with the community involvement that could be a template for other schools. Well attended matches in a smaller city. That is my opinions, others may differ.
I get the upsides mentioned for schools like Marshall (and probably Missouri State, too -- it isn't academically elite or in a location most players would consider a major plus, though you'd think some St. Louis-area players might think of it as a good place to play and get a degree). And, again, I have nothing against the players from abroad who have this opportunity and take it. But -- while I'm not a firebrand about it -- publicly funded schools probably should be "suggesting" that their coaches not fill all or most of their rosters with players from outside the country (and probably should make some effort to have at least some in-state kids on their rosters since that's where a major portion of their funding comes from and this is the population they were created to serve -- most or all of these schools may be doing the in-state piece; I didn't go check their rosters). That said, I also have mixed feelings about a cap on foreign players, if the NCAA ever seriously considers the idea (has that ever happened?). And I most definitely don't want state lawmakers getting involved, even if they are the decision-makers on a major chunk of funding for public universities.
You mean the Ryan Holmes who averages 8 min/game? Less in close games. Does that count as "in the rotation" at Marshall? C'mon, no guessing needed. The facts are right there: at Marshall, 97% of the playing time goes to foreign players. (I grant you, it's not like Missouri St.; coach allows some Americans to ride the bench.) To me, it's perverse at an American university. Especially one underwritten by public funds. And honesty, it says more about Marshall the University than it does about Grassie. I should add that I think having *some* foreign kids on a college team is great. Great for the foreign kids and great for their American teammates. But let's face it, we all know why some coaches fill their rosters with foreign, often older, players. (BTW, WTH is going on at Bryant? 50 rostered players? Did the new coach just import his entire D2 squad of foreign players?). I think the best point you make is that the success of the Marshall program is good for soccer culture in the area. I hope that's the case. I watched the Marshall-WV game (another coach who relies on the foreign player cheat code). It was genuinely exciting to see the SRO enthusiasm in the stadium. Does that enthusiasm extend beyond the campus, especially when there are basically no local WV kids playing meaningful minutes on either team? I wonder.
Here's an interview given Thursday on our statewide radio network. Just jump to 4:40 and listen. it address all this. P.S. Holmes was a 13 game starter for us last year. He averaged 15 minutes per game to start the year before a death in his family in September. Everyone at the games knows who #5 is.
A couple things here: WV is one of five states where female youth sports participation is higher than male youth sports participation. Yes, that involves more than just soccer, but can't say that three years removed from a national championship has truly impacted male participation much. And, overall, the 6-17 youth participation is below the 50% mark which has commonly be used as the target for youth sports numbers, and is bottom 10 in the US. NFHS stats: 2018-19 - 82 schools and 2041 boys 2018-19 - 77 schools and 1786 girls 2022-23 - 81 schools and 2088 boys 2022-23 - 71 schools and 1751 girls One less school in boys soccer and 47 more boys playing (roughly 2 boys more per program). On the girls side, six less schools and 35 fewer girls playing. Since the national championship, we can see a decline in HS soccer participation in WV. Marshall is also the only DI program in the last 5+ years to send a desperation plea for recruits to many "regional" youth clubs to build their JV team. No other DI program has done this, to my knowledge. Guarantee kids to come in to "play DI" but never sniff the varsity team. Build a budget and increase opportunities for the varsity team by getting the JV kids to pay a decent chunk of money to sit there not getting a chance. That can be seen through the number of [domestic] kids that have left Marshall without a single minute or miniscule minutes of college soccer played in 1-3 years. We get it, you're a Marshall fan and want to defend what they're doing right away. That is fine and your right to do so, but there are plenty of statistics out there that there is not a great deal of international influence positively impacting soccer in the US. This isn't just a Marshall problem, it's a US soccer problem. MLS and USL are also at record international numbers. NBA is as well, if we care to include another sport. There's different ways to look at it for benefits, of course. But, for a prospective young athlete in the US, it's not truly all that beneficial to see roster spots taken and the opportunities just get yanked away from you before you even get a chance. It happens. I'm in it. I see it regularly.
I understand this perspective, but so what? Nobody has a god given right to play college soccer let alone D1. The US has a glut of colleges and there are plenty of places to play soccer at the next level for club players. If an American teenager can’t get a look at D1 (or D2) because those spots are being taken by “foreigners”, is that really a problem that even needs to be solved? Where I see most of this complaining coming from is parents—who themselves often want to be able to puff out their chest and tell other parents their child got a scholarship or is going to play “D1”, and occasionally coaches whose school’s admissions department doesn’t play ball with internationals. Again, so what? I understand the perspective and I’m happy to alter my viewpoint here, but I don’t think any of what has been said thus far is compelling at all.
Yes. It is. For a country that has yet to figure out participation and enjoyment in sports, taking away opportunities is a reason why participation dwindles. If activity dwindles, that also means the health and well-being of domestic athletes will also cease earlier and earlier. We have heard from K-12 that health, activity, sports participation, etc. is important in life. But, once kids graduate 8th grade or HS, what happens...massive declines, partly because participation opportunities cease. It's also a sport that for 30+ years has used the terms "growing" and "exploding in popularity" and "football better watch out" etc. At some point, that needs to be thrown out OR really, something done about it. Those statements just aren't factual, no matter who is throwing it around. I'll say, yes, it's gotten tons better of viewing opportunities on television...until MLS decided to paywall their matches even more in 2023. At some point, isn't what we do in sport to provide opportunities for the growth of the domestic player AND the domestic sport? When MLS was established, it was done as a means to bring the USMNT to World Cup competitiveness. That can be widely debated on if it has achieved any of that, especially with a 2018 miss. The top countries in the world with soccer all focus domestically on all levels -- which excludes college sports because it's largely nonexistent in other countries. But, for the US, we have college athletics as a pathway for development and professional aspirations. No matter what those administrators (schools, affiliations, etc.) say. Same can be said for the costs that are associated with playing soccer anymore. Sure, we can say, "nobody has a god given right to play youth soccer at the club level" but do we really want to limit participation based on pricing out kids? We can just say, "if you want to play a cheaper sport, then go play basketball or football..." and that just doesn't make sense. I get it though. Some people want to win, and win now. It is easier to "win now" when you go recruit international club castoffs, especially if they are 20+ years old freshmen. It's also a lot easier in coaching that way too, there's a lot less involvement in training players to become better. It's more man management. It's reaching out to the friends in those other countries and getting the hand-picked and selected players for the specific college programs. But, lets not act like it's a net-positive for soccer or the institutions for a long-term either. Look at when Messi isn't playing at Inter Miami, it's a ghost town. It's been this way, no matter the MLS entity that is picked at when there's a major emphasis in a DP or international "star" that will come save the franchise.
Agree with a lot of the above, and I don’t think it is necessarily a net positive for American soccer, just that the specific issue for college soccer is not really a problem or worth fixing. Nowhere else in the world does the same breadth of opportunities for 18-22 year olds that are not good enough to be pros exist (someone please correct me if I am wrong). It’s a symptom rather than the underlying cause. For me, the biggest issues that I would start with in US soccer for addressing participation are coaching quality at the youth level, which stems from the lack of financial incentives for clubs to develop high quality players.
Well, that can be looked at at a variety of ways, in my opinion. While very few places have college soccer, they do have lower divisions available for thousands of players. We don't have that in the US, sure we have a few pro divisions, but we do not have a great network of amateur divisions that players can play within no matter where they live. The rest of the soccer world has some nice pyramids for that instead of college soccer. At the same time, nowhere else allows for the marrying of "education" and "athletics" like we do in the US. This allows for competition, health, AND professional development (on and off the field). That's a huge positive too, and one that is attractive for a lot of other countries to come to the States. Maybe, in a perfect world, the US could have their college soccer system exist within a US Soccer pyramid. But...that'll never happen. It would be something special if something like that existed, or even a true pyramid for talent to participate in regardless.
I am curious of which players you spoke to. For example Marshall's GK Dan Rose, Everton was paid $120K transfer fee from Schalke for him. That really doesn't sound like the normal US youth soccer player.
Dan Rose is sort of an interesting case. He's an article (technically behind a paywall but was sort of easily able to read the entire article) talking about his decision to come to Marshall. https://www.the42.ie/dan-rose-6146164-Aug2023/ Alot of people (initially including myself) assumed given his pedigree and history (including playing on the Ireland U-21 national team) that he was likely to be the starting GK this year, but late in the recruiting process we also signed 5th Year transfer Perrotta from UNGW. When asked in his first press conference this year about the competition at GK, Grassie said that signing Perrotta has huge for us because it allowed Rose time to redshirt and to "mature and develop some life experiences off the pitch necessary to be able connect with the guys and learn how to become a leader". Alot of broad brushstrokes are painted by those who put all "internationals" into a single label. People have individual backstories. Rose has been in academies since he was 9. He wanted something different - he wanted experience outside of just the sport, perhaps showing that the Euro academy approach isn't a benefit to all people as he yearned for life and experiences beyond just the sport. He's seen a benefit to what a college program provides. He'll be a red-shirt freshman when he steps between the pipes next fall. Because of the offer here, he will be a stronger all-around person when he leaves in the years that follow.
I don't doubt that he will benefit from his experience at Marshall. My issue is that when you look at a lot of internationals (including him) and where they came from, where they played and the compensation they received for it. It is not fair to the US born players (not saying all internationals were paid, I know many did not and are just looking for the US college experience). But a quick search of some of the internationals playing and you see they were on U23 pro teams, getting loaned out and transferred to and from different European teams. This does not happen to amateurs, they may not be getting paid a lot, but they are getting paid and have an agent. US born players cannot do any of these things and be eligible for college. The minute your hire an agent (excluding NIL deals) you are no longer eligible for college. If you sign any type of pro contract your are no longer eligible for college. There needs to better scrutiny on the international players or allow US players more freedom instead forcing a 16 year old to make tough choices of taking a chance on going pro or staying eligible for college.
This isn’t accurate. It’s best to do some extra research on how these types of contracts are permitted, even in the US. It is even more common now, but not really seen by the 21+ year old domestic players.
Well please explain what you are talking about because it seems more and more foreign players are coming here after their pro career did not materialize. I know a 23yr old sophomore who was getting paid in Europe and makes it know he thinks Americans should stick to basketball and American football because they can not play and do not understand soccer.