'I'm a fascist not a racist' insists Di Canio

ahh ok then, anyways im sure if you do the roman salute anywhere in civilization anywhere in the world is unacceptable not just N.A if anything N.A probably does it the most to joke around with. its the euros that take it seriously since they were in the course of it

 

I cannot believe how ridiculous some of the discussion here is. I will follow Nicepohras' lead and make a couple of points.

1. Teso is an idiot. Plain and simple. A player crossing himself and a player giving a Roman salute are so different, I don't know where to start. Probably by saying fascism and Catholicism are not the same thing.

2. Fascism is not just any political ideology. It led to the bloodiest conflict ever, and it took half the world 6 years to stop it.

3. Racist is an idiotic word, because people assume it's somehow still intimately connected to the obsolete idea of race. Mussolini's regime did not persecute Jews, but it had no qualms about persecuting Slavs in the eastern parts of the country. One could argue that most countries in the 30s did not have the best human rights record, but that's beside the point. Many Slovenes and Croats living in what was then Italy spent WW2 in concentration camps.

4. Mussolini was Hitler's friend, ally, and role model. He participated in the invasion of France, Greece, Yugoslavia, and even USSR. Call it damnation by association, but you CAN pick your friends.

5. Comparisons between Lazio fans and Livorno fans are stupid. Communists won the war, fascists lost the war, and as we all know, the current world order is based on who the losers and winners in WW2 are. Also, the Italian Communist Party never killed anyone.

 

Yes, we have freedom of speech in italy.

It's also true that it exists the theoretical "apology of fascism" offence. A measure that had reasons to be in the immediate post war (remember that the end of the war brought also a civil war in italy).

Rather than a ban on expressing fascist-like political opinions it was viewed as justifying the actual historical past fascist (Mussolini) crimes but it really hasn't ever been implemented.
When it mattered the rejection of fascism was so huge amongst the citizens that there was no reason to implement that law. And now it is totally obsolete.

For example, this is an italian politics forum.
http://www.politicaonline.net/forum/

You will see a "La destra" subforum with others subforums (destra radicale, destra sociale = neofascism). the ppl who discuss there are mainly neofascists.
And they do it publicly without risking anything. And in case you understand italian you will find some nutheads (racists, antisemites etc. etc.) with ppl freely using mussolini or other fascist symbols as their avatars.

I'd say that the usual political landscape in italy is far more differentiated than the US one.

 

1. You are the idiot and you join nicephoras and mad theory in that regard. Publically showing support for fascism, any other political system, any religion or anything else is all exactly the same. If you try to ban one, then you must ban them all.

2. Yes, it is.

5. Not stupid at all. Lazio fans support one particular political ideology and Livorno fans another. It is EXACTLY the same.

 

Stalin's communism was probably worse than Mussolini's fascism, and the Italian Communist party DID kill people.

 

Stalin killed 20 mil of his own people, way worse than mussolini. if the russians didnt agree with him... well lets just say they would 'disappear' the next day. Mussolini loved his italians, marched over Rome .took it over. and becomes history.

 

mussolini did persecute jews, and discriminated against them for years. just because he didn't send them to the gas chambers as quickly as Hitler doesn't make him some nice guy. he did not view jews as equal italians. mussolini passed a series of anti-semetic laws in 1938 and ran internment camps for foreign Jews. 8,000 Italian Jews died in concentration camps. many didn't leave Italy when they could have because they thought they would be safe there. to mention Stalin only does the "well, he killed more, so he must be worse", but that shouldn't absolve mussolini. If Lazio doesn't want to be associated with such atrocities, they have every right to ban their employees from making a fascist gesture while wearing the club uniform. if Lazio and other clubs don't care about being associated with the largest church in Italy, they probably don't mind Catholic gestures. That's their right.

 

repped. well said... good point of view.i agree

 

I'm afraid I'm going to need sources for that one.

 

It's certain not a probability. This doesn't mean it saves fascism from condamnation.

What?

The PCI (partito comunista italiano) did not kill people. Nor ever tried to use ways to gain the power other than the legitimate democratic process.
Many regions have always been red regions, governed by members of the PCI, since the end of WW2. For example, Mussolini's Emilia Romagna, one of the richest parts of Italy.

I guess you are referring to the civil war. But partisan brigades were not only communist, each democratic party (cristian democrats, republicans, socialists etc. etc.) had prominent members who fought as partisans vs the fascists.

There have surely been excesses and wrongs as in any other civil war. Noone is going to deny but... BUT

Recently the little nephews of fascism (AN with the help of some members of the berlusconi party) tried to rewrite history in order to suggest that both the parts were wrong. Specifically mentioning and hyping some specific incident were some partisan made some wrong and crimes.
It's our kind of revisionism. And as other types of revisionism is not so successful amongst thinking brains.

The partisans are still the founders of the post ww2 italian republic.

 

The second book received a harsh review... I can understand why... though I still think that if these numbers are true there has to be an explanation.

Of some 50,000 Jews in pre-war Italy, 42,000 managed to survive the World War II period. In a country allied with the National Socialists (Nazi) how did so many survive when elsewhere on the continent under Nazi control millions did not?

And I don't think it is "luck". There's surely an explanation involving the italian society as a whole.

Actually those numbers were used by Goldhagen to prove his point in his famous book (showing the difference of outcome between a society of willing executioners and one of unwilling executioners)

Of course it would be dumb and naive to suggest that whole italy was free from any racism/amtisemitism.

 

sardus, my point is that the Italian Communist Party has killed people, not that its as bad as Mussolini.

 

Not probably, but certainly, but Italian communists are not the same thing as Soviet communists, and certainly had nothing to do with Stalin's attrocities. I was merely making the point that post-WW2, the The Partito Comunista Italiano was a legal party that participated in the democratic process and did not try to seize power by violent means. In the 1976 general elections, it won 34% of the popular vote. You can hardly compare them to the fascists.

 

Oh, and so I don't forget, as far as racism of Mussolini's regime is concerned, excerpt from a book on the Italian occupation of Ethiopia by Richard Pankhurst

 

Would a Fascist DARE touch hands with a man of another race?
(shaking hands with former Hammer hool, Cass Pennant)

 

he should not be punished just because blatter does not agree with his political views.

 

uh i understand but PCI did not kill people. Unless you're referring to the civil war times. It can be said then that also all the other democratic parties (DC, PSI, PLI, PRI etc. etc.) did kill people.

Since we are talking about PCI.

There's one political figure who bears responsability in covering the realities of Stalin's URSS and it is Togliatti. he knew what was going on since he was there.

This later lead to the rejection of the soviet union way when sardinian* Enrico Berlinguer (an icon for modern leftists)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrico_Berlinguer

In this role he took part in the 1969 international conference of the Communist parties in Moscow, where his delegation disagreed with the "official" political line, and refused to support the final report.

Berlinguer's unexpected stance made waves: he gave the strongest speech by a major Communist leader ever heard in Moscow. He refused to "excommunicate" the Chinese communists, and directly told Leonid Breznev that the invasion of Czechoslovakia by the Warsaw Pact countries (which he termed the "tragedy in Prague") had made clear the considerable differences within the Communist movement on fundamental questions such as national sovereignty, socialist democracy, and the freedom of culture.

(...)

In 1976, in Moscow again, Berlinguer confirmed the autonomous position of the PCI vis-à-vis the Soviet communist party. In front of 5,000 Communist delegates, he spoke of a "pluralistic system" (translated by the interpreter as "multiform"), referring to the PCI's intentions to build "a socialism that we believe necessary and possible only in Italy."

When Berlinguer finally expressed the PCI's condemnation of any kind of "interference", the rupture with the Soviets was complete. Since Italy was suffering the "interference" of NATO, the Soviets said, it seemed that the only interference that the Italian Communists could not suffer was the Soviet one. In an interview with Corriere della Sera he declared that he felt "safer under NATO's umbrella."

This lead to the electoral successes El Urchinio mentioned. And this explains how and how much the italian way to "communism" was peculiar.

*If there's a part where sardinians had a huge role in Italy is politics. Starting from a political thinker such as Gramsci (co-founder of the PCI and a widely recognized influential communist theoric) to a lot of major figures (Berlinguer, Segni, Cossiga) .

 

How many people did the red brigades kill? In Portugal we had similar scum that today walks in freedom.

 

OK, we are going totally OT, let's hope this lesson of italian recent history is at least interesting.

Too many. But they targeted also the PCI, union leaders etc.etc. PCI take on red brigades was "they are criminals that should end in prison".

Those years (gli anni di piombo, the lead years, with terror coming from right and left extremists and also unknown sources) were the years of my childhood/first adolescence and i can still remember how sad were tv news.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anni_di_piombo

The main event in the First Republic was the entry of the Socialist party in the government in the sixties, after the reducing edge of the Christian Democracy (DC) had forced them to accept this alliance; attempts to incorporate the fascist Italian Social Movement (MSI) in the Tambroni government led to riots, and were short-lived.

Aldo Moro, a relatively left-leaning Christian democrat, was the inspirator of this alliance. He would later try to include the Communist Party as well, with a deal called the historical compromise.

This was however stopped by the kidnapping and murder of Moro in 1978 by the Red Brigades, an extremist left-wing terrorist organisation.

The Communist party was at this point the largest communist party in western Europe, and remained such for the rest of its existence. This was largely due their non-extremistic and pragmatic stance, and to their growing independence from Moscow (see eurocommunism).

The communist party was especially strong in areas like Emilia Romagna, where they had stable government positions and matured practical experience, which may have contributed to a more pragmatic approach to politics.

The Lead Years

See also: Strategy of tension

On December 12, 1969, a roughly decade-long period of left and right-wing political terrorism known as the lead years (Italian: anni di piombo) began with the Piazza Fontana bombing in the centre of Milan. A bomb left in a bank killed about twenty, and was immediately blamed on anarchists. This was hotly contested by left-wing circles, especially the Maoist Student Movement, very strong in those years in Milan's universities, who considered the bombing to be of fascist brand; their guess was proved to be correct, but only after many years of difficult investigations.

Some left-wing extremists, then dubbed extraparlamentarians since they referred to no institutional party, formed the terrorist organization Red Brigades, while fascist "black terrorism" (Ordine Nuovo or Avanguardia Nazionale) was also in activity, following a sort of "strategy of tension", in which occult and foreign forces (such as the P2 freemason lodge and the CIA) have allegedly been involved.

The Red Brigades, among other acts of terrorism, killed socialist journalist Walter Tobagi (seen as an enemy because he was a moderate), and, in their most famous operation, kidnapped and killed - under obscure circumstances - Aldo Moro, president of the Christian Democracy, who was trying to involve the Communist Party into the government.

The Red Brigades notably met fierce resistance among the Communist Party and the trade unions, even if a few left-wing politicians used the condescending expression "comrades who are mistaken" (Italian: Compagni che sbagliano).

The last and largest of the bombings, known as the Bologna massacre, destroyed the city's railway station in 1980. This was also found to be a fascist bombing.

Many aspects of the lead years are still shrouded in mystery, and debate is still going in regard to some aspects: to what degree the Red Brigades were actually been exploited by right-wing or possibly foreign forces to destabilize Italy or to discredit the Communist Party and impede the Historic Compromise, and whether NATO and the United States were involved in the fascist bombings, with an alleged organisational structure called Stay behind or Gladio, revealed in the Chamber of Deputies by Prime minister Giulio Andreotti (DC) on October 24, 1990.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategy_of_tension

The Strategy of Tension (Italian; "strategia della tensione") is a way to control and manipulate public opinion using propaganda, disinformation, psychological warfare, agents provocateurs and terror. Coined in Italy during the trials of the 1970s and 1980s terror attacks and murders committed by neofascist terrorists (such as Ordine Nuovo, Avanguardia Nazionale or Fronte Nazionale) backed by deviated intelligence agencies, P2 masonic lodge and Gladio, a NATO secret anti-communist army. The bombings were part of a strategy to promote an authoritative government, opposing any "historical compromise" between PCI and DC.

Piazza Fontana's bombing, in December 1969, marks the beginning of the "strategia della tensione", which ends with Bologna railway station bombing in 1980. On August 4th, 1974, 12 died and 105 were injured in the bombing of the Italicus Roma-Brennero express at San Benedetto Val di Sambro.

In 1974, Vito Miceli, P2 member, chief of the SIOS (Servizio Informazioni), Army Intelligence's Service from 1969 and SID's head from 1970 to 1974, was arrested on charges of "conspiration against the state" concerning investigations about Rosa dei venti, a state-infiltrated group involved in terrorist acts. In 1977, the secret services were reorganized in a democratic attempt. With law #801 of 24/10/1977, SID was divided into SISMI (Servizio per le Informazioni e la Sicurezza Militare), SISDE (Servizio per le Informazioni e la Sicurezza Democratica) and CESIS (Comitato Esecutivo per i Servizi di Informazione e Sicurezza). The CESIS has a coordination role, led by the President of Council. General Carlo Alberto Dalla Chiesa's murder, in 1982, by the mafia in Palermo is allegedly part of the strategy of tension. Alberto Dalla Chiesa had arrested Red Brigades founders Renato Curcio and Alberto Franceschini in September, 1974, and was later charged of investigation concerning Christian democrat leader Aldo Moro, assassinated in 1978.

 

Sure:

It is important to emphasize that both the non-Jewish and the Jewish population believed the antisemitic laws were promulgated against Mussolini’s will and only in order to appease the German ally. Italian Jews, therefore, assumed that the new laws were meant only as a temporary discriminatory measure. However, this was not the case. The antisemitic legislation in Italy originated solely with Mussolini and not as a result of any Nazi pressure. Yet, the Jews’ trust in Mussolini and in Italian society continued during the following months when Mussolini introduced into the Italian antisemitic legislation the confusing concept of Discriminazione (discrimination)
http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/departments/institute/nidam.html

In 1938 Mussolini produced his Manifesto of Italian Racism and declared the Italians to be part of the "pure race" along with the Aryans. Jews were expelled from all public services, such as the army and also public schools.
In 1940 Mussolini joined the war in alliance with Hitler and ordered the fascist army to ransack the ghettos. The confinements and deportations began in 1943.
http://www.initaly.com/regions/ethnic/jewish.htm

http://www.brainyhistory.com/events/1938/september_1_1938_96715.html

Also controversial will be Farrell's assertion that Mussolini "saved more Jews than Oscar Schindler". Quite apart from the fact that Schindler was not a head of state and thus in no position to save as many as Mussolini, neither did Schindler pass the anti-Semitic laws that Mussolini did in November 1938. Farrell's explanation that "Mussolini's anti-Semitism was not biological racism but spiritual racism" does not sit well with his other statement that "although not anti-Semitic, Mussolini became increasingly anti-Jewish", and either would have looked pretty sophistic to Jewish doctors and lawyers who lost their professions due to his laws. The fact that Mussolini did not collude in the Holocaust hardly makes him a Righteous Gentile.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2003/06/29/bofar29.xml

Even if good ol' Benito had done absolutely nothing against the Jews living in Italy, being an ally of the man looking to wipe them off the map would be repugnant in my book. But if you want to excuse him by comparing him to Stalin, that's your business.



Happy Holidays

 

One of the laws of italy's constitution is that public fascist apology is a crime.
Di Canio has all the rights to think what he likes. But, being a public star, he has some responsibilities, first of all not publicly support an ideology against the law and the constitution.

If he wants to do so, he can freely depart to a banana-republic elsewhere in the world.
Our glorious partigiani gave their blood to free this country.

 

you cannot say that facist are racist, just because Mussolini was racist(which i'm not admitting nor denying.). Facism, is the same as communishm, capitalism, or socialism, is just a form of government.

 

*sigh* I wish people actually read my posts instead of tilting with strawmen.
The question presented was racism and fascism. Are the two necessarily the same? Well, the answer that was given was that its been shown that fascism didn't have to be racist. See, for instance, Mussolini.
Now, you've provided evidence that upon his alliance with Hitler, Mussolini passed some anti-semitic acts. And? Mussolini's ideology predated Hitler's rise. He'd been ruling Italy for some time before Hitler even took power. Yet, once the more powerful ally starts making demands, he conceded. And, it should be noted, did nothing until 1943 when he wasn't ruling the country anymore - the German soldiers propping him up were. There's no real evidence that he was anti-semitic.
As to the bolded language above, how does "excuse him" have ANYTHING to do with this? The only question was whether or not he was an anti-semite. That appears unlikely. That hardly makes him a good person. Stalin probably wasn't a racist either. Hooray!