The Portuguese league is more popular in Brazil than the Spanish league, but I think for semantic reasons.
Well that explains it. If you only take the current five top teams into account, you add a strong bias in favour of leagues where there top 5 don't change much between years, like England, and disadvantage countries like Spain and Germany with more variation in the top 5 places. I'd rather take the UEFA rankings then as they go over 5 years and evaluate the performance of teams that actually qualified for Europe.
Yeah, sorry to disapoint you but both Italian and Spanish leagues are waaaay more popular in Brazil than the portuguese league.
I don't ask that question with any hint of displeasure or judgement. I am genuinely curious to know how the MLS would compare to other leagues worldwide, and how one would evaluate such a thing. I watch a few MLS games each year (usually Metrostars) and I've seen MLS teams play against top European sides, but I don't know what conclusions to draw. The European sides come in pre-season shape, use half-shadow squads, yet MLS fans want to draw big conclusions from some of the encounters. (I remember one poster commenting on Chris Rolfe "humiliating Nesta" after a Chicago Fire-Milan match--it was actually Stam and I think the score ended in Milan's favor, but then, does it matter?). I was having a discussion related to this in another thread, and without wanting to seem insulting, I said that your average MLS team would probably lose over two legs to your average SerieB team. But of course, that is pure conjecture. I am basing that just on basic skills and tactical sophistication. There would be more to the story. The MLS teams seem to be good athletically, for instance . . .
I wouldn't quite go that far. To put it in Italian terms, I think the best MLS sides are about on par with Ascoli or Treviso. And I say that having just watched Ascoli get mauled by Lazio.
I wonder how to determine such things though. Treviso for instance just came up to Serie A and may not stay in the top flight. Yet if you look at bottom-table teams like Parma or Lecce, you'd be surprised at the quality they have. (Parma have Bresciano, Marchionni, Bonera, Paolo Cannavaro, and an exciting young midfielder named Andrea Dessena; Lecce have Vucinic, Konan, Cassetti, Ledesma, Sicignano, and others. I would expect both to edge out any MLS team.) Last year Parma made the semis of the UEFA Cup, but only survived relegation after a play-off with Bologna. So it really does depend on which bottom-table teams you focus on and it's hard to say generally that the best MLS teams are roughly equal to the cellar-dwelling Serie A teams. I don't know. What's needed is more data.
I'd have serious doubts about any ranking that puts MLS below the Irish league. Most observers have placed the Irish league on a par with USL1, and that seems to be borne out by the players who have gone between the US and Ireland (players going between USL1 and Eircom League and performing similarly; players going from Eircom League to MLS and generally failing). Besides which, I've analyzed the methodology before. It's horribly lacking. I'd suggest that the addition of Chivas USA and RSL this season - two very weak teams - actually raised MLS in this ranking as the top 5 all took points from them!
Welcome to the world of stupid rankings! Ranking leagues is impossible, especially when some of the leagues mentioned as top have about four clubs (some more like 2 clubs) who regularly compete for the championship title every year. For example, most years one can expect a Bayern Munich, Real Madrid, Juventus, or Ajax to make a run at the championship. Or to give a better example, take a look at the Turkish league, only 3 teams have ever won the championship there: Fenerbrance, Galatasaray, or Besiktas. But what no one seems to consider w/ these leagues that don't have salary caps is this one simple question "How good are the rest of the teams?" For a lot of the leagues on the list, sure the top 3 or 4 are amazing but the rest of the league is joke. The MLS should have made the list for this reason; because MLS teams are on par with majority of the teams in these leagues. Ranking a league like Poland's above MLS is joke, when the only truly strong teams are Wisla Krakow and Legia Warsaw. Until all leagues have some kind of salary cap system to balance league play; there can be no way to compare leagues effectively because the difference between a top team in a league and bottom team is simply too big. Sure Chelsea was amazing last year but Southham sucked; let's get real and stop comparing leagues; when there's no good measure of an entire league's strength.
This ranking would be far more accurate if they didn't include the domestic records of the top five in each league. After all, it seems to reward leagues without depth, because the top five are able to rack up a lot of points in domestic competition and raise the league's IFFHS ranking. A thought experiment that shows just how broken the IFFHS ranking is: consider a league in which five strong clubs are owned by billionaires that pay out millions of dollars for players, and the rest of the teams are amateur. IFFHS will note that the top five take a lot of points in domestic competition, and award a lot of ranking points to the league for the domestic results of the top five. Now, let's say the rest of the league goes fully professional, and gets a nice big injection of money. The top five are now going to face some serious competition, and will consequently drop more points. Any casual observer can easily tell that the league has become much stronger. And yet... that league would drop in the IFFHS rankings. Also, MLS suffers because any points earned in international competition by teams that don't finish in the top five are excluded. This season it had a minimal effect, because the only ranking points lost to the system were from Kansas City's draw vs. Saprissa, and DC United's CCC points counted in full; however in several past seasons none of MLS's CCC representatives finished in the top five in the league, and their points were not counted.
Nice post. Your point is correct that ranking leagues without having a common baseline is impossible in the absolute. However, I'm sure you have your own intuition as to which league is the strongest, or where MLS ranks relative to other leagues (you did it in your post regarding MLS vs. Polish league). That intuition implies a personal standard, which is impossible to quantify. What I can appreciate from those who try and devise analytical frameworks is that - whether 100% correct or not (few ever are) - they allow everyone to assess the results under the same rules. What was not clear to me were IFFHS' rules. So, I emailed them and got a very interesting response.....
My initial email to the general IFFHS mail box:info@iffhs.de Gentlemen. My associates and I have been intrigued about your "2005 World Strongest League". Though we've read your notes, we'd would like to get a more detailed understanding of your methodology. From your website - "The classification of the best leagues of the world is made objectively without any outside influence of any sort. We follow the criteria that the level of performance of a league is reflected by the best classified teams of that league who in turn usually represent their country in international club competitions. If one looks at the football power-houses of the world, one notices that regularly 4 or 5 clubs of their leagues are always competing in continental competitions. By adding the points won in all competitions by the five best placed clubs of each league, we have the points for the country which in turn helps to establish a fair classification. It is important to note that only the yearly classification is representative, since all competitions move along the whole season and over twelve months, we have an objective view of the best. This system has been used since 1991, and it is recognized today as the most precise in rating the leagues of the world." However, this leaves questions. For example are UEFA CL points exactly equal to Libertadores (and other continental championships)? Are the previous year's totals factored in at all? Are results within a given league itself factored? etc... Are you planning on putting a more detailed explanation of your methodolgy on the site? If not, would it be possible to request it? cheers PS - You guys do a great job.
IFFHS initial reply : Dear Sir , Please see "Club World Ranking" , special "How the Club World Ranking is made and explanations". With some logic should be all clear. Regards Dr.Alfredo W.Pöge (IFFHS President) -------------------------------------------------------------------- At this point I read the Club World Ranking detailed explanation provided at this link http://www.iffhs.de/?e4380bfd300bf17420d87453d33c17fd3504f32b10f83e The World Club Ranking was started monthly since January 1st, 1991 and the information is globally distributed early in the following month. This ranking takes into consideration the results of twelve months of continental and intercontinental competitions, national league matches (including play-offs) and the national cup. In those countries having several national cup competitions, only the one organised by the national federation is included. Since the cup competition systems are diverse at the preliminary stage level, we assign only the points won in eight-finals, quarter-finals, semi-finals and the final. The points are assigned based upon a rating system of the level of performance of each national league. In the case of matches decided by penalty-kicks, each team receives half of the points in contention. All national leagues are rated at four levels based upon performance. In this grouping, each country (where the club plays) is assigned a number indicating the performance level of each national league. Clubs in the highest level leagues receive 4 points for each match won, 2 for a draw and 0 for a defeat. Level 2 is assigned 3 pts. (win), 1.5 (draw) and 0 (lost), and so on with the next lower levels. The same system applies for the play-off matches. In the continental competitions, all clubs receive the same number of points at all stages regardless of the performance level of their leagues. In the case of draws each team receives 50% of the points in dispute and 0 points for a lost match. The points are distributed equally to teams in matches decided by penalty-kicks. All Asia, Africa and CONCACAF continental competitions have the same point-assignment system: 8 points for a win, 4 for a draw; in the preliminary tournament phases for The Caribbean and Oceania zones, only 4 and 2 points are assigned for win and draw. In the South American competitions the clubs receive 12 points for a win, 6 for a draw; and in the European 14 and 7 points, respectively. Competitions between two continents are evaluated depending upon their importance. In the FIFA World Club Cup, the awarding system for wins and draws is determined by averaging the number of points assigned for wins and draws in each of the other continental competitions. Those competitions not organized by a continental confederation, or any intercontinental events not recognized by FIFA, are not taken into consideration for the World Club Ranking. Any competition cancelled before completion alters the point system. In order to equalise the chances of South American and European clubs we do not consider the result of previous matches already played in said tournament. The World Club Ranking is a precise classification showing the real level of the clubs free of any subjective influence. It is the result of a profound analysis that allows us to fairly report the level of international performance for each country.
After reading the link provided I quickly come to the same conclusion as Elninho, especially the weight given by IFFHS to the very top tier (top five) in each league. I'm at this point convinced that indeed there has to be more analysis of the mid and lower lever teams, and that the dear doctor just doesn't have time to mention. It must be. Back in the days when I was a consultant you learned to ask the very simple question in order to get confirmation on assumptions before running with them. So I send him back a quick reply: Dr. Poge. Thanks for the quick reply. However, I'm still confused. I'm writing about the World's Strongest League....is the World's Strongest League simply a point totals based on the addition of each teams in the Club World Ranking for each country? thanks --------------------------------------------------------------- To which the good doctor replies....get ready for this: Dear Sir , If you not understand this text and not are able to think logical, you should not write about this matter. Since more than ten years we had not a such question world-wide. Sorry, but that is the reality. Regards Dr.Alfredo W.Pöge
Not knowing that as a BS poster I am used to being insulted, I responded thus: Dear Sir. An amazing, unexpected, and disappointing response. For your information, I belong to an online football community which has been discussing your survey for the past day-and-half. Many were questioning the methods you are using, and I took it upon myself to praise the usually unbiased and analytical driven approach to your site. As noted, the explanation on your site is not clearly understandable - neither to me, nor to many, many intelligent football afficianados. I thus took the initiative to contact you for detail to help us understand....I do regret making the effort now. Be assured, I will post your response to my inquiry verbatim on the boards so that all can witness your attitude towards those truly interested in statistical football analysis. Thank you kindly. -------------------------------------------------------- Indeed the dear doctor seems to be defensive about his methodology. Elninho you seem to have been spot on concerning the flaws. I'm of the mind to get a select group of BS posters and come up with our own ranking....which we'll gladly explain to Dr. Poge. I hope you all enjoyed the story
I'm rolling on the floor laughing at the stranger-than-fiction story Tp has given us! Especially our dear "Doctor Poge," what a character. A stammering, blustering fool no doubt. Two thoughts after reading the above: 1. My thoughts on head-to-head matches between teams from various leagues is indeed, in the end, 'subjective'. The truth is, only by having a broad view of how teams from a given league perform against all of its rivals does one arrive at a picture of that league's strength. If La Liga teams lose to teams from Ligue 1, it does not mean ipso facto that Ligue 1 is stronger--because Ligue 1 teams may also lose to EPL teams, who lose to La Liga teams, and so forth ........... 2. Our own statistical analysis sounds fun. Where to begin?
LOL. Great stuff. Seems the good doctor just makes it up as he goes along! How dare you question his methods, lowly mortal!! He seemed personally offended one of the many would question his word, quite sad in a way, but still, at least we get a great story out of it.
The thing is I didn't question him at all in that sense. I simply requested confirming clarification. He lept to the assumption that I was trying to ambush him in some manner. I hope that you all don't rubbish all of IFFHS' output because of this. They provide pretty good statistical analysis on the game in other areas. This just happens to be one area that they clearly should develop further. As for developing something internal Sempre, I think it would be a challenging endeavor, but one we could produce with proper management. It will never be perfect, but could be more complete in its approach. It would take some dedication of time though.....