IFAB 2024

Discussion in 'Referee' started by gaolin, Nov 28, 2023.

  1. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    You are so ready to be a coach!
     
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  2. davidjd

    davidjd Member+

    Jun 30, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh, I had solutions when I coached! It's how and when you express those solutions which is the part to remember to keep in check.
     
  3. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To go back to your original point about "sin bin", I believe the formal term used is "temporary dismissal".

    "Sin bin" is just a lot more fun to say, to be completely honest.
     
  4. Kit

    Kit Member+

    Aug 30, 1999
    Herkimer, NY, USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sort of how it's called a "penalty area" in the LOTG, but everyone refers to it as a "penalty box."
     
  5. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    Oh, you must mean the goalie box!
     
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  6. davidjd

    davidjd Member+

    Jun 30, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, that bugs me too......
     
  7. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So I've been thinking about how the sin bin tactical foul (SPA) could work. The concept of an attempt to play the ball already exists with DOGSO so I suppose it wouldn't be a stretch to apply it to SPA and making it into a sin bin. But I think you need to add an additional step since defenders might just make a wild slide tackle instead of simply grabbing an opponent. If the tackle is both reckless and SPA then it also should be a sin bin.

    I realize that in an era of the laws turning into a book of "if statements" has had some problems but I think you would need to include both of those clauses. Maybe we can come up with a series of hand signals to denote these types of offenses ;)
     
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  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While you focus on the SPA part, my mind goes to dissent.

    I know I had a rant on this a few years ago, so I’ll be brief here: if the powers that be actually think dissent will be addressed and sanctioned more with sin bins than yellow cards, they are more idiotic than they let on.

    Referees don’t give enough yellow cards now for dissent, right? That’s the issue. And right now the punishment is a potentially inconsequential yellow card (at least immediately). Referees are supposed to be more likely to punish dissent when the punishment is making a team play down for 10 minutes? Particularly when most of the worst forms of dissent that referees are reluctant to punish occur at critical junctures in the match?

    I mean, c’mon. Seriously. All you’re doing is incentivizing referees to tolerate even more dissent because you’ve ratcheted up the direct consequences of the punishment.

    The lack of critical thinking at leadership levels is reaching epidemic proportions.
     
  9. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Kinda like when the “solved” Rs not calling GKs being odd the line early by adding a caution to the retake? . . .even rats can learn . . .
     
  10. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    It's even worse because every now and then (mostly in Spain and Italy) you would see referees toss dissent cards to multiple players on the same team after major incident.

    It's one thing to send a team down to 10 men for 10 minutes or so, but what referee would give three dissent cards to the same team of he would be forcing them to play down to 8 men for 10 minutes?

    Impossible. Just madness.
     
  11. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Remember the Arsenal/Newcastle Havertz yellow? Imagine Newcase playing down two for dissent?
     
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  12. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    FIFA wants goals!
     
  13. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Someone help me. I haven’t seen this addressed. What happens if the sin bin has 5 from the same team in it? Are they expecting to play below the min? Is the team required to use a sub to bring a player on? And if so what happens if you have no subs? Or is this considered a temporary suspension of Law 3?
     
  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I haven't seen this in writing from IFAB, but I imagine things would just follow the ice hockey model, where penalty time is postponed if it would be putting a team at worse than a two-man disadvantage. That's if it's even been addressed, of course. But I think that scenario is the least of anyone's worries.
     
  15. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    That would be hilarious if they didn’t. Because if it happens it won’t be a professional match that it happens at. It would be the first weekend of rec/amateur play and maybe as early as 8:00 AM the first day of games. Someone will get mobbed and send 5 to the bin at the first sign of dissent.
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think you're going to see sin bins at those levels. And you certainly won't see them at those levels until years after they are firmly established at the top levels.

    I mean, I hope you don't see them permanently at any level. But even if you do, the logistical issues around properly implementing them at lower levels are self-evident. It's not quite VAR. But it's a massive challenge.
     
  17. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I completely agree. Unless every field has its own extra sin bin manager with a bag of timers it’s virtually impossible. All I can imagine is they would expect the managers or team mom manage their own. And they would immediately bring dissent from the opposing manager when little Johnny gets back on a minute early.
     
  18. sulfur

    sulfur Member+

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    Sin bins are already at that level in a number of countries around the world, including England.
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Define "that level." He said rec/amateur. I'm interpreting "recreational" to be an incredibly low level. Grassroots.

    These trials are occurring at high-level amateur and lower-level professional, correct? And they are dedicated trials with the necessary support. I don't think anyone believes sin bins would be at recreational/grassroots levels or even widespread at high-level amateur. At least not for some time.

    EDIT to say I see Google searches have the Guardian and other sources citing "31 grassroots leagues in England." Okay, I'll concede that point and language. But still... what is "grassroots" here? There's a different between well-organized English men's leagues and, well, the vast majority of youth/amateur soccer we see in North America.
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  21. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    I am somehow envisioning sin bins as a lead in to ridiculous amounts of time wasting and hoof ball. Boring soccer.
     
  22. sulfur

    sulfur Member+

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    No worries about questioning. In theory, yes, it's easier to deal with at those levels. And I suspect that we won't really see much change at the very top levels.

    As I understand it from friends of mine in the ref "business" over there, the current trials in England are spread across low level play right up to low level professional play.
     
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  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The ending of City-Spurs and the dissent (which was noted in the thread) got me thinking... is there anything in this proposal--or, perhaps more importantly, in the trials--about how you deal with, say, an SPA sin-binning at 90+2' when there's only 3 minutes of stoppage time?

    I know in rugby, it just is what it is. But in that sport, time can continue with one team in possession until the ball goes out of play. Given the type of behavior during dynamic play that this change is intended to prevent and punish (cynical fouls to stop promising attacks), it seems like there's a giant loophole as time starts to wind down... which is, of course, the most critical time for cynical fouls in close matches. At least the specter of a 2CT or yellow card accumulation might make a player think twice. Also, if SPA is punished with 10-minute penalties in the first half and most of the second, it just seems incongruous and unfair to have it potentially be a 1- or 2-minute penalty when it matters most.

    Is it just a case of "it is what it is?" Or is there any effort to, say, add more stoppage time? Or have late-match SPA penalties somehow carry over or accumulate against a player?
     
  24. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd


    This is actually a great interview on how people think there is an NFL officiating "crisis."

    It really isn't. It's just that there is now slow-mo replay and multiple camera angles on every single play along that have created a cottage industry of people posting screen shots and clips of missed calls.
     
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  25. davidjd

    davidjd Member+

    Jun 30, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I certainly don't know any discussions about this, but my 14 cents......

    I don't see this as an issue. Being a player down in the last few minutes of the game could certainly be seen as being more impactful than in the 20 to 30th minute of a game especially when the shorthanded team is trying to sit on the tie or lead.

    I would also hope that leagues would be able to track accumulation penalty minutes to issue additional sanctions to players finding themselves with time penalties too often much like yellow card accumulations work.
     

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