The biggest failure of this organization has been the draft selections. Here's brief recap of our dismal drafting. 2004 Too early to tell but passed up Dempsey 2003 Trading for BD; passing up Pat Noonan, Todd Dunivant and Mike Magee Selecting Shavar Thomas instead of Brian Carroll, Eddie Gaven Selecting Jason Thompson over Damani Ralph We have no one on the roster from that draft 2002 Gbandi first overall instead of Twellman 5 of the first 18 picks and only Gbandi and Behncke to show (granted weak draft) 2001 One of the better drafts Vaca Ryan Suarez Eddie Johnson Passed on Buddle to select Josue Maynard 2000 Passed on Califf, Victorine, Vagenes, Zavagnin and Convey Selected Korol, Antonio Martinez, no players remain from that draft
We need to find out whoever the Revs are going to draft - and draft that player first. To be fair though, several teams passed over those players as well. It's true our drafts have been pretty poor since 2001, though we have no idea how last year's is going to turn out. We may not even find out in 2005. Course, we did miss the rookie of the year who lived just 3 hours from Dallas. I think you can also toss Chris Gbandi on the Steve Shak, Chris Carrieri A-League heap.
Looking at some of these players make me really sad. I think the Dempsey one was a real kick in the teeth since he was a native Texan. If we drafted him, we have one less space to fill.
There have been some missed assets, but hindsight is 20/20. Don't forget the context at the time of these drafts... When NE took Dempsey many press, coaches, and GMs called it a reach. No one thought he would be this good, so clearly everyone in MLS is a moron. If they had he would have been #1. I can't really fault FCD for picking Nunez, the local product they had felt they found and developed. And they needed a defender so taking the P40 Goodson is hard to comaplain about either. Still Dempsey is a freak, how did so many teams miss him? Burn tried hard to trade up to get the #1 to take Esky or the #2 for Ricardo Clarke.... but were not able to. At that point they liked Davis better than what was on the board... And I still think in the long run Davis will be better than Noonan, Magee, and Dunivant. Gavin is the real miss but he was a very young kid. After you trade for Davis why take him? Dunivant looks good but at the time Dallas had Gbandi and Broome at LB. Noonan that year had a dog crap combine and he was slidding off the board. When you combine him with Dempsey and Twellman, that is three straight years that NE took someone draft consesus was surprised with... all paid off. UNless you count NEs record. After trading for Davis, Dallas was looking at central defender and Thomas was the best one on the board that year. The biggest mistake of that year was Arturo Alvarez who Dallas really wanted. They didn't think anyone between 10 and 14 wanted him so they left him till the later pick and got burned by SJ. Jason Thompson was picked as Dallas needed a P40 due to roster room and they felt he was the best p40 left. Again no one really knew what Twellman was gonna do, he was an enigma. Gbandi was the CLEAR #1 that year at the time. Should his injury have raised questions? Maybe. But anyone passing on him would have been jeered at by all parties at the time. Bussey and Morrison turned out not so good, Morrison at least had a great college career. But take a look at the players drafted after those too.... there is not much there besides Shalrie Joseph and Dallas had Deering, Pareja, and Zarco all shooting for the same spot on the field. I always liked Craig Copano, who is just now coming on, and Dallas got Stone ... who never really did get the run he deserved. Alejandro Moreno might be the other names missed out on in the 3rd round, but taking him in the first would have been a reach. Good draft, Jeffries first. I still regret trading away Suarez. and when mayard was taken he was roster and cap expempt. And after you take Johnson why take Buddle? It's hard to remember the context of the time. I remember thinking Korol was a great pick, and I remember general amazement when Chivas was picked... No one really knew anything about him. Still at pick 22 that is a nice find. Dave certainly seems to have not felt he needed a defender. and wasn't convey always going to DC? Zavagnin in round 3 is a real steal.
???????????????? Davis will be better than Pat Noonan???????????????????? All Noonan has done is break the record for goals by a rookie, (along with Damani Ralph) and then follow it up with tying for the most points in MLS in the '04 season. What would possibly draw you to this conclusion? Noonan is not flashy, and does not have eye-catching skills, but you can't have a much better 1st and 2nd year in the league.
These things can be said by fans of every team. I know that probably doesn't help much, but we feel ya... Like Buzz said, I remember Gbandi clearly being the #1 prospect according to all the draft gurus. For the Galaxy, Caligiuri had just retired and we in dire need of a LB. I was praying the G's would trade up and get their mitts on Gbandi. The draft is an inexact science to say the least, but I admit it's fun to think what could have happened. Just remember, though, that they made the best decisions they could at the time. And, if a guy dropped to the 2nd round, most likely EVERYBODY made the same mistake....
This thread is about the pattern not the specifics. Look at our starting lineup from the last game of the season..only two players drafted by the Burn Johnson and Kreis (not including Cassar since he left and came back). There has been no continuity on this team because of the poor drafting and lack of development. The greater point is that the draft has been very ineffective for Dallas. Buzz, you had a number of reasons for why they picked this individual over another..but why the consistency in poor drafting?
We all have our opinions. You listed stuff Noonan has done. I never said he sucks or anything like that. He appears to be a good player that has led his team to two poor seasons, just like Davis. I think.... and this is my opinion.... that Davis has more talent than Noonan. What he lacks is Noonans work rate. If Davis can find higher work rate and become a 90 minute player he will be a real stud. Davis plays midfield Noonan forward so stats don't tell us much. Davis was a rookie of hte year finalist like Noonan. Davis led his team in scoring his second year from the midfield. Davis has played for U18, U20, and now u23 so someone else must think they kid has potential. Noonan is good, I think Davis will be better. Therefore I think Davis will be a better player than Noonan.
Oh don't get me wrong. I think there should be some criticism there. I think your overall point is not a bad one. I just big on context. I don't know. Maybe one could claim they are good at trading for talent... or bad... depending on how you look at it. Maybe certain GMs put in too much input over coaches.. or not enough.... I think the biggest problem of all if lack of full time scouting people. There is no staff for it in MLS. I wonder if one took the time and comapred all MLS rosters how many teams really have the talent on the field they drafted.... maybe that would be telling? Certainly NE seems to have hit the nail of late.... but then again where did they just finish? Chicago I would have said was top notch.... but they just were in last.
That said in addition to Dempsey, New England has added Noonan, Twellman and Joseph the whole lot of them have turned out to be good young players and only Twellman went in with a high rep and even he's outperformed expectations. I think the Dempsey pick should at least partially be put down to good scouting since Nicol and company are establishing a track record in that regard something Dallas can improve on.
I think all of this is somewhat irrelevant. CC isn't gonna play young players. Until he does, I'm gonna b!tch and moan. In order to be successfull, MLS teams have to get production from young players, otherwise they end up sending out "solid" players that coaches feel comfortable with because they don't make many mistakes but, they don't add anything either.
My biggest concern here is that the Burn/FC Dallas seems to have done a poor job in our back yard. Dempsey, Burciaga, Garcia, etc. - there is a lot of good young talent that came from 'round hea' that ain't playin' for us...... Hopefully that can change.
Speaking of Burciaga, he just mentioned that he would love to play in front of his family wearing the colors of FC Dallas. His contract is up with KC, but they do have an option. These comments were courtesy of an interview on La Mejor 910 AM.
The youth set up coming in summer 2005 should really help things as FC Dallas will have quite a few new employees who can partially help in scouting and who I'd hope know how to analyze young players. At least I'm assuming they'll incorporate such synergy.
One thing you can count on in this league is that the "experts" don't know crap when it comes to the draft. Sure, most of the time they can pick a good player if they have the #1 or #2 pick. However, I'd say that the majority of solid players drafted recently were "reaches" that the so-called experts totally missed. Buddle, Dempsey, Noonan, Mastroeni, Ralph, Curtin all come to mind. Some guys can judge talent and others can't. Nicol clearly can. The comment was made that Noonan had a crap combine the year he was drafted. Obviously he didn't, for those who know what to look for. Same for Dempsey. You think Nicol is drafting these guys by drawing names out of a hat? I suspect the reason the "experts" so consistently misjudge dominant talent after the first few picks is that they are mostly college guys. The difference may just be that the Nicol's are focused on the qualities that make a good pro, while many of combine crowd can't take off the college blinders. That's my theory anyway. It's probably slowly changing though. Like Northside said, our best strategy is to try to bug Nicol's office and pick who he likes.
I have never been to a combine (although this year I am trying to go). And I don't consider myself a draft expert or talent spotter. I am not Mel Kiper. I go to the draft as I am in my offseason and can go. When I do my lists I base it off of soccer resume and feedback from coaches, GMs, reporters, and other people I talk to. All they are for is to give a rough idea about where guys maight sort of fall in the draft based on what I hear. When I go to the draft I try to keep my ears open and pass on what I hear. I offer what limited info I can cull together on some guys. The only guys I offer my personal opinion on are guys I see in Dallas camp. Noonan was well thought of prior ot that combine. During and after the combine I kept hearing how poor he was when talking to people who were there.. . coaches... GMs... reporters... over and over... Things like "He looked like he cound't handle the pace of play" "looked out of depth" "Just didn't influence anything" "Too slow." "not sure he can take it to next level" Then on draft day he started to slide, you ask around for a reason why and again you hear the same things.... Until NE took him. Same with Twellman, at his draft no one really know much about him that I could find. an engma... not sure how good he is.... things like that. Dempsey too... I heard the same kind of stuff. No one really knew if he could bring it up to MLS. I remember hearing he would drift in and out... real talent but no real work rate... perhaps a bit of a head case.... But you can almost always get that kind of thing after the first couple picks. Every coach and GM has a reason why they pass on one guy and take anouther. Take Taylor who KC moved up to get this last year... "A reach" was the rumble.... You are correct that Nicol seems to have a way of cutting through the crap and finding some real good players in the next group behind the obvious picks. He has a proven track record. I am interested to see who he picks this year ans how that jives with the vibe prior to the pick.
The issue is not that we've missed out on stars, but even servicable starters. Take the MLS Cup champs, Namoff, Nielsen, Carroll, Esky, Olsen, Gros, Adu all from the draft. The business side of this is that you end up in a good salary cap situation vs acquiring talent via trade. Without knowing the salary figures, I would guess Namoff is less than Talley, Nielsen less than Jolley, Carroll less than any of our midfielders, Gros less than any of the 14 that we would play, etc. The point being, which is the point of the thread, Dallas has not been able to draft or develop MLS starters.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. I have a feeling that the college/youth guys are looking for that clean-cut, hustle kind of player. The real pro scouts, like Nicol, are able to see the latent talent in the quality players, and are able to imagine how it could be harnessed in their system. I have no evidence to support it, but I just have a feeling that much of the conventional wisdom about who the "top" players are is somehow coming from this college/youth scouting community.
Just to play devil's advocate and fan the discussion.... which I am enjoying.. good thread everyone. IIRC Didn't DC suck for several years before? I rememebr them drafting near the top for a while, maybe even missing playoffs multiple times?? I am sure Jefe has that info for me. Is that slow build over a couple years with a young core not what Elliott claims they are doing? Other than Gros (a heck of a pick) and Adu (screw Dallas) those guys were all drafted by Rongen and Hudson and not the current coach. Other than the fact DC just won the cup and Dallas finsihed in last... why can't anyont believe the idea of (to quote the open house) "Gibbs, Johnson, Goodson, Davis, O'Brien, Nunez" being the same young core idea DC used that FCD will try to use? Sure Nunez and Goodson need to play more, but I don't remember much out of Esky and Carroll last year. Is Dallas not missing the vet forward (ie the Moreno) and the vet leadership (stewart) in the midfield? Is that not what we have been talking about on these boards. Frankly Goldfinger I think you are on the money. This build and develop young core players didn't happen here in the last several years. CC and GE are saying it is now, and other than the two most recent picks, who are still very young, they do seem to me to be trying to pull this same model off. I prefer the 2 or 3 year build to the one win now at all costs method. not saying it will happen mind you as I do disagree with some of their moves... but I do like the mantra I am hearing out of FCD right now.
The pace of play in a combine of U.S. college players is most likely HECTIC. Noonan is not a "hectic" type of player. He is more of a slick, subtle, combining type of player. Maybe Nicol saw that in him.
3rd Degree, what FC Dallas are missing is not a core of talented young players, but a coach with the personal skills and charisma to galvanize them into a team that has a personality, a clear tactical approach, and the grit to battle for each other and the result. We don't have that at the moment.