If Rochester makes it to MLS...

Discussion in 'Rochester Rhinos' started by Fiorentina lives!, May 5, 2004.

  1. United_Caps_Fan

    United_Caps_Fan New Member

    Apr 25, 2004
    Alexandria,VA 134/35
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I never disputed that.


    Sure they have great marketing, I never said they did not. Rochester has some of the best at that, but again, its all contrived and canned to me, but again thats MY PERSONAL OPINION. As for SJ, who the hell wants to root for a team that is named after a natural disaster?. Colorado? Thats just weak. IF you want to look for one of the worst names/ identities in the leauge, you need to look no further than the very team you support pal. I will give you that. Colorado is leaps and bounds better than the Crew.



    And I still fail to see what "Rhinos" has to do with with the city of Rochester, its history, ... et al. Im not talking SOCCER here, I am talking regional/ local. You are a BlueJackets fan obviously, so you of all people should understand what Im getting at.



    Once again, In ever disputed how that franchise was run or operated. Stick the things I DID say if you are going to sit here and get your panties all in a bunch enough to nitpick every line of mypost.




    I can call names too ya know? but I wont stoop to your level. And yes, I do realize they are two totally diferent things. MLS's club brands are for the most part pathetic. Again, my personal opinon.



    Firstly,its not TOTALLY different. The Seattle situation is alot closer than dallas. The Sounders, or any given incarnation of soccer in seattle is all tied together, and very well recognized. Maybe not as great as Rochester, but you cant ignore that fact about seattle. Dallas.. well. anyone can ignore them.



    Suites me just fine too. Even though I dont care for the name. Im not one of the ones who will have to cheer for or root for them. The whole premise of my thoughts on thier name were to make MLS look alittle better as a whole. I supposed youd like MLS to return to its TRUELY busleage days of team names and kits back in 96? have you ever seen what it all looked like? The photo of each teams kits? AWFUL and very very laughable. I would think MLS would want to move as far away from that as possible, and they have done a reasonbly good job so far.



    No... by YOUR logic we should do all that. Just because "Rhinos" has roots in soocer in rochester you are arguing the same thing, on a different level. Im more focusing on respectability here in terms of how MLS is views from the outside. As for the other teams.. see my above response about SJ, Co... etc. Futhermore, some things just dont need to be, and should not be, TOTALLY AMERICANIZED! what about that dont you get?



    Uhhh.. I think you meant SOCCER??? Im not arguing about the city/state/region being a more traditional name in this hemisphere. Thats fine and good, but maybe sometimes something alittle different is a GOOD thing, instead of the same old crap that some (lots) in this country seems to LOVE having spoon fed to them.
    WHY does everything have to be so damn canned/ contrived/ packaged in this country to be accepted? Jeesh.


    And I belive that I may not be. I might be on this THREAD, but thats just here.


    Jeeeeez o flip man, can you NOT READ? I blatantly admitted I had personal opinons in my post. I think you are just some self rightous (insert whatever explative youd like here) who loves a good fight, and cant wait until you get into your next argument.


    See my above thoughts on this very same thing. It has nothing to do with Rochester itself, its history, etc... But you just either wont, dont want to, or cant understand what I am saying.





    Now if you had just responed with this kind of post, I would be more than happy to get into a discussion about this with you, but you didnt. You decided to go on the attack here, come out flying with whatever nonsense youd like to call that flame.(names insults..etc). If you take the rest of the nitpicky BS you just posted OUT, and just left that, then Oh.. oh my goodnes, wouldnt ya know... you and I probably agree alot more than youd ever want to admit.

    Id love to see Rochester in MLS too. I too agree with dropping the "raging" I too kind of like the RRC thing.... please.. read on.

    I wasnt talking about totally abandoning anything, even just some slight changes would make it ALOT better than what that club's identity is now. There is no reason that something new, maybe slightly different, yet in keeping with the CITY itself, and the history of the place, as well as (even maybe subtly) paying homage to the history of the clubs past, should not be looked at here. My line of thought, was for the good of MLS in terms of how it is being viewed worldwide, not just here in the U.S. If we look bushleague, minor leauge, or whatever to everyone else but ourselves, then the joke will ultimately end up being on us. The name of the game in this particular sport is NOT to "americanize" it as much as we can, but to become a respectable, and powerful organsation on the worlds stage, and that HAS to happen if MLS is going to even come close to competing with the big leagues in other places. Branding/ marketing is part of that. The first time I ever saw Rochester, its name and logo, or most other A-league teams...( and this same thing applys to minor league hockey too) I thought to myself thank god im a fan of MLS (or NHL) and thank GOD our teams names/ identies are not that bushleague and downright silly.

    What does a Rhinocerus (yes I know I probably spelled that wrong) have to do with Rochester NY????? What? Seroiusly... what? Do you see where im going with this?

    I will give you this though... this aspect of everything I just talked about is one of the smaller ones. it does factor in sure, but its not something I would consider to be xtraordinarly major either.

    Now...
    So after this nice little exchange, ( since you were obviously far more interested in flaming and not discussing) I dont think ill be discussing this with you any futher.

    Have a nice day!
     
  2. Dave Brull

    Dave Brull Member

    Mar 9, 2001
    Mayfield Hts, Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am going to have to wait until the Cliff Notes version of this thread is made available. That's about five feet of post.
     
  3. United_Caps_Fan

    United_Caps_Fan New Member

    Apr 25, 2004
    Alexandria,VA 134/35
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    LOL! Post of the day!
     
  4. brandonFC

    brandonFC New Member

    Jul 1, 2004
    Just East of Tampa
    Being a former Rochesterian that grew up watching the Lancers at Holleder/Aquinas stadium, I really wish that the Rhinos would keep their name and stay out of the MLS.
    Now that I live here in Tampa, I've seen first hand how the Garber-led league can destroy an area's desire for professional Football. Before all the Tampa bashers come out, we were stuck with an absolutely pathetic coach (John Kowalski) after Rongen left, and it drove our team and the fans into the ground.
    Now back to Rochester. For years Tampa had a tremendous identity for Football (the Rowdies), then when MLS came to town they decided in their infinite wisdom to call the team the Mutiny. Okay, we all thought, with Tampa's history revolving around Jose Gaspar, and Gasparilla day, that made sense. Then MLS revealed the logo, some bat looking thing that made no sense whatsoever.
    So it took the first couple of years just to try and build some identity. Then when we finally had it, the league traded away our most recognizable player (Valderrama) and brought in Kowalski who didn't even show up on time for the team's training sessions.
    I feel that the Rochester move to MLS (America's REAL 2nd Division), will damage everything that has been done to promote the sport in Upstate NY. :(
     
  5. United_Caps_Fan

    United_Caps_Fan New Member

    Apr 25, 2004
    Alexandria,VA 134/35
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    Ok, that is / was bad marketing period. We all saw that. I suppose whoever (MLS?) decided to go with Mutiny, was trying to play off of the pirate theme of the Bucs? Thats the only thing I can think of. Granted, Rowdies had history there, but the name/ brand was only marginally better than Mutiny. I still cant figure out why they tried to go along the same theme as the american football team there.

    As for MLS staying out of Rochester, do you feel MLS should stay out alltogether? Or are you suggesting that MLS relocate another team there, give it a new identity, and keep the Rhinos there as well?

    I personally could not see that happening, as I dont see Rochester as being large enough to support MLS and A-league franchises. Furthermore, I dont think MLS is far enough along in its young existance either. Baseball and hockey can do this simply because they are old enough, and have large enough fan bases in terms of the sport, that a large area can support both a major league franchise, as well as a minor league one. Some cities not only have NHL and AHL franchises, but also have ECHL or UHL franchises too.

    I know here in Washington, there are 3 minor league baseball teams, two single A, and one AA, and two are less than 35 minute drive to Baltimore. Unfortunately for me, the closest minor league hockey teams are in Richmond, VA, (UHL) and Hershey PA, (AHL)

    SO do you really think Rochester is large enough, and soccer loving enough, to support both and A-league franchise, as well as a MLS franchise, with both being able to draw healthy numbers and do well? Just wondring.
     
  6. drew_VT_6

    drew_VT_6 Member

    Feb 22, 2000
    Orange County, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Have you ever watched the show Scrubs? One of my favorite lines that gets repeated in every show is, "Listen newbie..."

    Soccer won't continue it's current growth pattern in Upstate NY if the Rhinos don't move up. That's kind been the mystique around the team from the beginning.

    Second, I watched DC United's starters last week play the Rhinos. There's a reason they are the top division.
     
  7. United_Caps_Fan

    United_Caps_Fan New Member

    Apr 25, 2004
    Alexandria,VA 134/35
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Funny I didnt even catch that the first go round. I was going to wait for a response from you, but now I dont think its necessary. NOW I know you really dont know too much about soccer, in Rochester at least. If anyone that has a clue about Rochester cares to address my questions to this poster, then by all means feel free. I somehow think we might not even see another response from this guy.


    I would suggest that if you are going to attempt to talk smack about MLS, that youd leave it alone, and dont post in any forms on BS that have to do with MLS. If I were you, with that attitude, I would stick to the USL forums.

    Oh, and if MLS is the real second division, then Rochester has some serious problems because they cant win even win a game against a "2nd Division" side, that most definately didnt field its best effort or players. Last I checked, Rochester has never beaten D.C. United. Have they played other MLS sides? have they ever won against one?

    So, either you are suck blowhard A-league fan that it clouds your judgement.. OR.. you are just still bitter at MLS for attempting soccer in a city that obviously at the time either wouldnt, or couldnt support an MLS franchise properly.
     
  8. drew_VT_6

    drew_VT_6 Member

    Feb 22, 2000
    Orange County, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In the first half of the June 23rd match both DC and Rochester played their starters. In the 2nd half neither team had many starters in the game. The first goal was "flukey" at best although the Rhinos did appear to be having a drowning-swimmer panic attack at the time. It was probably part of the reason why the Rhinos GK suddenly became indecisive about whether he was a left midfielder or a GK when he passed the ball from 25yds out, to Moreno's feet at 45yds out. In the 2nd half the game was very even, and the goal by Freddy happened because our 2nd string GK made a ridiculous clearance to Dema's feet. The DC midfield dominated our midfield, but is there really a better midfield in MLS? The defense had holes, and the forwards were dangerous but didn't really outclass our defenders.

    To answer your questions: Yes the Rhinos have beaten other MLS teams, numerous times. Look up the 1999 US Open Cup. They also beat a couple of MLS teams in 1996 to get to the finals against DC.

    If MLS teams don't play their stars the Rhinos most likely will win. The Rhinos are full of players that could be (have been) MLS role players, but that would mean making MLS role player money.
     
  9. McGinty

    McGinty Member

    Aug 29, 2001
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    You keep on saying that and eventually, you'll believe its true.

    And the league trade away Valderrama? RIIIGHT
     
  10. United_Caps_Fan

    United_Caps_Fan New Member

    Apr 25, 2004
    Alexandria,VA 134/35
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Thanks for the real response! I had gone back and looked at thier Open Cup record, and its pretty good. I also am very aware that both teams used starters for only a half in the "friendly". ( god I hate that term I whish they would just call it an exibition match.)

    So what about that other posters points about MLS staying out of Rochester, and my responses to it?
     
  11. drew_VT_6

    drew_VT_6 Member

    Feb 22, 2000
    Orange County, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Simple, I think he's a disgruntled fan trying to talk smack. I think you may have wasted some brain waves responding to him.
     
  12. Brian in Boston

    Brian in Boston Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    MA & CA, USA
    The reality is that Major League Soccer is an American-based professional sports league, and the methods and practices for naming American pro sports franchises is decidedly different than those used for naming more "traditional" European/South American professional football sides. While the die-hard soccer/football fans amongst us would probably like to see the MLS sides adopt more "traditional" names and logos/badges, the vast majority of American sports fans - and broadcasters - are familiar with MLB, NBA, NFL and NHL clubs (not to mention mino pro sports teams) that utilize much more "colorful" identity packages for their teams. In an effort to fit into the American pro sports landscape, while possibly generating some interest on the part of new American fans and media outlets along the way, MLS has opted to adopt variations on these more colorful team identities. So be it.

    I, for one, don't need (or expect... or want) any of Major League Soccer's member teams to mindlessly adopt a more "traditional" style of naming themselves simply because "that's the way it's done in England, Italy, Spain, France, etc". I happen to enjoy the "new" variety of team identities being used for franchises in this relatively "new" soccer league. As long as the league and its member clubs continue to stabilize their business functions while putting increasingly talented players on the field, I'll be happy.

    Hey... if I need to look at a league table filled with "United"-this and "FC"-that, I'll log onto the websites for the Premier League or Serie A or the Bundesliga and check up on my favorite English, Italian or German side.

    Bottom line? If fans are so interested in preserving the "traditions" of soccer in MLS, then they should realize that the tradition in a market such as Rochester now revolves around the Rochester Raging Rhinos identity. Hey... if that's the tradition, I say embrace it rather than change it.

    Brian in Boston
     
  13. Etienne_72772

    Etienne_72772 Member+

    Oct 14, 1999
    Wow. It's like he says what we're all thinking!
     
  14. United_Caps_Fan

    United_Caps_Fan New Member

    Apr 25, 2004
    Alexandria,VA 134/35
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Good post, good points. It does partially come down to personal taste / opinon for us all. I agree with alot of what has been said here. Im not for trying to copy or emulate exactly all the other leagues around the world by any means, and Im all for at least attemtping to keep some of the traditions of the long tenured franchises involved in soccer here in the U.S. I just think there are more tasteful , less contrived ways to do it, and also be somewhat in keeping with soccer traditions worldwide.

    For Rochester I understand the the name/brand/ identity, and its long tenure, and I suppose that it would be better to continue to build that in the community, however, with some minor tweaking at least. Like dropping the "Raging" part, and improving the logo. The logo is my personal least favorte part of Rochesters identity/ brand. I think many would agree that something much better can be created, while in keeping with that franchises history and traditions.

    To me its like the Seattle Sounders. I personally think that is a great name, and thier new shield type logo is great. Its somewhat traditional in the sense it is a shield, and its been updated with the Orca on it, and I think it looks great. Like the Rhino's the Sounders name/ identity/ brand has quite a bit of history in Seattle. I think what they have done is exactly what MLS should shoot for in terms of team branding. Modern, in keeping with U.S. team name traditions, while also keeping some soccer traditions as well. Its a great name, and thier logo goes a long way to add to that.

    I think Rochester would do very well for itself, and MLS by updaitng, keeping somewhat with both U.S. and worldwide soccer traditions, with just a couple of small tweaks.

    My biggest thing is avoiding the clown show that was MLS in the beginning. the kits were AWFUL accept for D.C. United's which was the only one that was somewhat traditional. some of the names were, and still are awful too.

    Mutiny, Fusion, Crew, Wiz/Wizzards, Burn? Those were/ are the worst IMHO. Just bad all around.

    Good stuff in this thread. Glad it finally got off the ground. :D
     
  15. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This post is cute.

    It's made even more cute by the 6 wins and 31 losses that A-League teams have posted against MLS teams in the Open Cup since the Rhinos' victory in 1999. (And yes, that was updated after Wednesday night's Dalllas-Virginia Beach and Columbus-Syracuse results.)
     
  16. Bleacherbutt

    Bleacherbutt New Member

    May 1, 2001
    Rochester, NY
    The Rhinos still have scoreboard and turnstile over the Dallas Burn. This year, head to head, Rochester has averaged more fans per game. Heck, we even had more folks show up on a school night for an exhibition featuring Freddie than the Burn did for a Freddie league game (on a weekend no less). If I remember correctly we won the head-to-head match up in 1999 against the Burn.

    Yours in using the truth like a 2x4 between the eyes,

    Bleacherbutt aka UpperRight90
     
  17. Dave Brull

    Dave Brull Member

    Mar 9, 2001
    Mayfield Hts, Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Rochester/Dallas Trivia:

    Who did Dallas coach Dave Dir compare the Rhinos before the '99 Open Cup which got Rochester all riled up? For bonus points, use the exact phrase.
     
  18. Bleacherbutt

    Bleacherbutt New Member

    May 1, 2001
    Rochester, NY
    I don't recall. Please remind me what that fat rummy said.

    But, I do remember Jason Kries complaining about losing a small rinky-dink pitch and that once the Rhinos got on full-sized pitch with MLS clubs they would lose. Uh-huh, didn't happen. To everybodys' surprise he apologized a week later. The apology was classy and reflected well on Kries in my eyes.
     
  19. Jim Bob Rhino

    Jim Bob Rhino Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Club:
    Rochester Rhinos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    RFC is taken by a local youth soccer club.

    Personally, I find it funny when people talk of having American clubs name themselves like their European counterparts because European club soccer is more popular.

    Do people in Europe push for NBA or NHL type names for their hockey clubs because the NBA and NHL are the best leagues in the world for their sports?

    I doubt it.
     
  20. Jim Bob Rhino

    Jim Bob Rhino Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Club:
    Rochester Rhinos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think many people that hang out on soccer webboards would agree with you.

    But, the kids and their moms that make up a large portion of the Rhinos fanbase and buy a lot of merchandise would probably disagree.

    I think the best way to go is to actually look at having two logos.

    The current cartoonish logo to appeal to the younger audience.

    And a more "traditional" crest/shield type logo to appeal to the more traditional soccer fans out there.

    But in the end, I don't care all that much about any of it. I'm more concerned with getting PTP built and what the team that the MLS version of the Rhinos will field will be like.
     
  21. United_Caps_Fan

    United_Caps_Fan New Member

    Apr 25, 2004
    Alexandria,VA 134/35
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States



    The dual logo system is exactly what I had in mind when I was referring to things like "middle ground" or "compromise" or "something that would help keep w/ Rochesters tradition...etc.

    I think there are certainly more than enough of both types of fans (kids/ soccer moms & traditional) out there to give that idea alot of viability. :D
     
  22. Sanguine

    Sanguine Member

    Jul 4, 2003
    Reston, VA
    Interesting that someone with your username would support dual logos, since the Caps have, well, two logos. ;)
     
  23. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Rochester should definitely keep their name as it is. There is brand recognition here. I live in Syracuse and non-soccer people know about the rhinos. When I tell them we have a team in the same league as the rhinos, most of them had no idea. By the way, if you think "Raging Rhinos" is bad try the "Syracuse Salty Dogs". Now that's cartoonish. There is starting to be a good rivalry between these two teams, as well. There is real interest in soccer in upstate New York, and this is a good sports section of the country.
     
  24. SYoshonis

    SYoshonis Member+

    Jun 8, 2000
    Manistee, Michigan
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, doubt no longer. The British Basketball League has clubs named the Birmingham Bullets, London Towers, Newcastle Eagles, Scottish Rocks and Westfield Sharks, among others.

    http://www.bbl.org.uk/

    The British National Ice Hockey League has teams called Dundee Stars (with a very familiar-looking logo), Guildford Flames (again, look at the very NHL-like logo), Newcastle Vipers, Fife Flyers and Edinburgh Capitals, among others.

    http://www.fbnl.co.uk/teams.asp

    Not that I'm advocating changing all of the MLS names to Foxboro United or Columbus City, but just pointing out that using the names of established clubs in a sport as a template, while rejecting the norm of the dominant sport in that country, is NOT unprecedented.
     
  25. crewcrazy17

    crewcrazy17 Member

    Mar 5, 2002
    Medina
    MLS went with the same theme as the Bucaneers for one simple reason. To get Malcom Glazer to buy the team from them. Tampa was one of the league owned teams and MLS needed to get another investor. They shared the same stadium with the Bucs who are owned by Glazer who has a large stake in ManU. The thinking was that by naming the team is in the same theme as the NFL team, Glazer would be more interested in investing asa it would be easy to market both teams together.
     

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