I'd like to extend a warm welcome to Denmark on joining the wonderful world of Islam

What are you going to do when israeli arabs with their higher birthrate approach the 33% of the population? and when they will approach the 50%?

 

I think she referred to the injustified invasion of Iraq (at least a cruel dictator - once supported by the US - was removed from power and brought to justice ... even though there's a lot more of them still in power without having to fear Saddam's fate).

The Afganistan invasion was absolutely justified & needful (reaction on 9/11) and is supported by all European countries (except for their extreme left parties)!

Surely not as stupid as the Bush administration was...

There's better & more complex ways than Mr. Bush & Co. might think...

 

They will never reach that as long as they don't live in Israel, but in another country, be it Egypt, Jordan or future state of Palestine. So, of course, Israel needs to separate itself as it did with Gaza and same with WB and give the rest to Palestinians, let them figure out how to live.

 

Yes, failure.

Read my posts again and you might understand what I was getting at

 

I am not sure anyone said they should, the original post was regarding a personal observation and comment about what is happening in Europe from his perspective.

I honestly don't think Israel has ever told Europeans what they need to do with their own issues. I don't hink IDF or IDF special forces teaching different law enforcement agencies in Europe on tactical anti-terorism training can count for Israel telling Europeans what to do.
Plus Europe and Israel are not in the same shoes by any means.

 

Are you saying that Nazareth and the north district of Israel (ie galilee) has to be part of the future palestinian state or are you saying that nazarens and the rest of the palestinians living in the district will be "gently" invited out of their land ie ethnic cleansing?

and east jerusalem?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Arabs

 

For those who are not familiar with the israeli arabs perceived as a "demographic threat" and not as citizens of the state issue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Arabs

The potential for something simply unacceptable (ie ethnic cleansing) are there if the non jewish israeli citizens just get near to 30/40% of the population.

And that would be the result of zionism applied. like it or not.

 

Of course not, I am talking about WB and Gaza which was predominantly Palestinian, not the rest of Israel. Again with your relentless crap and ethnic cleansing - where supposedly a population that is being cleansed grows by leaps and bounds.

No one has to leave, but once Palestinians have their own homeland, it's up to Israeli Arabs if they choose to relocate. Although I hardly doubt anyone of them will.

It's rather simple, Israel fences off Gaza (done), fences off WB where majority of Jewish settlers live, and the rest is Palestinian, whoever wants to live there can do so.
As your comment about ethnic claensing, read up about what happened in all Aran nations when Israel was formed and how 500,000 Jews were forced or ethnically cleansed out of their homes. I know that will not suit your POV or your argument, but truth might help you a bit, although I doubt that as well.

 

That will have to change as in no way shape or form Israel will exist with majority being Arab. I don't know yet what the solution is, but as long as those Arabs are loyal Israeli citizens, that should be OK.

 

And why should they? Those are their towns, that is their land. And so the "problem" remains.
Israel shouldn't work to find a solution for the problem, Israel should work to turn the problem in a non-problem.

The way is the one I wrote in my previous posts.

I think it is wiser to focus on avoiding future ethnic cleansing against whoever.

What should I do? remind you of the nakba and then start another pointless never ending discussion on things that serve nothing but wasting time? I had enough of that, thanks.

 

It might be thier land, but the country is called Israel, not lower Nazareth and you live as an Israeli under Israeli law and rules.

The only nakba here is you with your moronic comments. Are you in that camp now as well and May 14 is a nakba day for you also?

 

and with the same rights as a citizen, no discriminations, not being called a "demographic threat" to their own country.

What camp?

as I already stated let's focus on the future to possibly make it better than the horrid past.

And no i am not interested in knowing and discussing your brilliant arguments explaining why the nakba didn't happen. Spare me.

 

When the neighbors across and some within stop trying to kill their "countrymen" maybe things will change, until then Israel will do what is neccessary to preserve security of her citizens, all of them.

Again with this catastrophe bullsh*t. If you belive that birth of Israel is that, then you are in that camp. So don't roll your eyes like a school kid as you know what I am talking about.

 

To clarify, some have been advocating Europe use repressive means to control Islamic fundamentalism within our borders - tactics similar to those utilised by Israel.

My concern is not with the prevention of individual terrorist incidents, many European countries have enough experience of dealing with those (especially when that historic capability is augmented by the techniques offered by IDF specialists). My concern lies with tackling the conditions which allow the subversion of innocent Muslims towards a fundamentalist mindset - it is in that area that, IMO, Europe is more "advanced" than Israel.

 

Of course, but like I said, living in Europe as a European and living in Israel as a Jew is a little different with safety being the biggest difference and that what separates certain acts and policies of Israel. Israel does not have to much to push muslims towards terrorism, Israel IS that reason for most of them.
Although climate and food is also very different between Europe and Israel.

 

It's not a matter of faith so it's not like you have to believe. You just have to be honest enough not to forge history to your likings.

I hope you don't go that far to deny that hundreds of palestinian villages were abandoned out of fear and at least half a milion refugees were denied to go back to their villages once the war ended.

http://www.mideastweb.org/refugees1.htm

one thing is to think that palestinians should renounce the right of return out of wise realpolitik (I do), another thing is to deny that the nakba happened because that's simply sci-fi history or a matter of faith despite the clear evidence. Nakba happened, like it or not, and by recognizing it you make a step towards understanding part of palestinian hatred.

Anyway do you really think that discussing the history of the palestinian refugees is of any real help when discussing about present day israeli arabs, their discrimination and future dangers?

It seems to me like you just want to change subject.

 

Half a million were denied to go back?! By whom, by their own Arab governments, by their own accord and they left and were not forced out as Jews were, so the comparisons are not similar at all. Nakba never happened and I will always refuse to call creation of Israel as that and if you do, than it is really pointless to continue this discussion.

 

http://www.mideastweb.org/refugees1.htm

I mean you cannot deny what even Israel admits. at least 520k refugees were created and were denied to go back to their villages.
Israel even passed a law to explicitly forbid their return.

You can think all of them voluntarily left (deir yassin?) but you can't deny they were not allowed back to their homes. Not if you're not willing to forge your own history completely detouched from reality.

 

Well, no one forced them out except Arabs and Arabs with UNIFIL are the ones keeping them in refugee camps as pawns against Israel. As for law prohibiting their return, thgey were asked to come back after 48 and 56, but Arab states told them not to, those who stayed are now living as Israelis in normal conditions not as refugees. As for Deir Yassin, your readings are probably 180 degrees different than what I have read and even at worst from Arab sources, there were no more than 100 casualties and those were not at the hands of Jews.

 

The list of wrong doings by the leaders of the arab states against the palestinians would be long.

The other arab states did little or nothing to integrate the refugees, that is right and mainly out of a political calculus, except maybe Jordan recently but only after a lot of pain (black september) and because of obvious reasons (palestinians are probably a majority in Jordan now).

but, with all the talking about they are all arabs one could tend to underestimate 1) the existing differences 2) the disruptive potential of a large influx of refugees to the stability of a country 3) the fact that palestinians themselves are not easily willing to forget who they are and where they are from even if there was the intention to integrate them in another country.

the palestinian refugees played a huge role in starting the lebanese civil war. And still the palestinian refugees are there in lebanon and most of the lebanese still view them as strangers and a threat to their country.

Odessit, it's not like that. I understand why you preferred things were different but they left (forced, not forced or both) and were never allowed back to their homes and villages. hundreds of villages were abandoned.
They were never asked to return. Have you ever heard of the "right of return" request in the negotiations? One that Israel would never accept.

And there's an obvious strategic reason for that. If they were allowed back, now israeli arabs would be much more near to being 50% of the israeli population.

not at the hands of Jews? irgun who claimed responsability was composed of non jews?

war is sh1t Odessit and human beings are capable to do terrible things, especially if they are blind with hatred and partisan nationalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

I also want to make clear that discussing about history serves only to understand that all the parts have legitimate reasons for their grievances.
for example, if Israel can claim it didn't start the 48 war, the palestinians can claim that the nakba happened and so on.

It's not black and white. It's shades of grey.

And getting back to what I am really interested in discussing, I will never stress enough the importance of Israel revising its zionist ideology in order to ease the tensions.

 

After 14 pages of tragedy, can we conclude that Israeli's should mind Israel foremost?

 

Yes, as long as the rest of the world leaves them to do what they need to guarantee their citizens' security.