How many continental trophies have the sport's greats won?

With this one I’m pretty familiar with the specifics. But the what-ifs will always be an incognito…

Let’s start with Edson…

Pelè
In regard to those specific years, the biggest thorn in Brazil’s path between 1959-1965 was Argentina who had a favorable record of 6 wins, 4 losses and 2 draws against their neighbors.

https://www.rsssf.org/tablesa/arg-intres.html

In 4 competitions (CA59, CA59 extra, CA63 and the Nations’ Cup of ‘64) Argentina either eliminated or defeated them. In 1963 they beat them twice and lost the other. Furthermore, given that Brazil had fielded the oldest team at WC62, by the following year they were going through a transitional renovating period which produced an onslaught of negative results, one of which culminated in their European tour that ended being considered by European critics as a ‘disaster’.

World Soccer magazine


And their newly assembled squad in Bolivia ‘63 performed extremely poorly. Nevertheless, it was more lucrative for the CBD (Confederação Brasileira de Desportos) to preserve their star players in cashing in on their European tours than to send them to a declining event that no longer had the lustre of the first half of the century.



In addition, Garrincha, Didi and Vavá, all key players were no longer available by 1963. Didi and Vavà had retired from the NT. Garrincha was plagued by injuries and half of their defensive lineup had been revamped. Then as a whole, Pelè’s NT career throughout the 1960s was rather undistinguishable on a personal level, particularly once the aforementioned players disappeared. He also had never fully recovered from the ‘62 injury that ruled him out of the World Cup and the year 1963 became known more for him as spending time sidelined than for his triumphs.

So again, with him or not the ‘63 Brazilian version was not in a favorite position to win any tournament. Once they did try to bring prestige back in the so-called ‘little World Cup’ at home in 1964, with all the best they had available, Argentina beat them handedly 3-0 despite the official handing out a phantom penalty and turning a blind eye when Pelè ‘criminally’ head-butted Messiano, the youngster that had shut him down for most of the match until he had to be subbed out with a broken nose.

El Gráfico (1964)


About the 1967 tournament, understanding the decline of this competition, Brazil did not participate, but even if they had it was played in Uruguay, where Brazil had always struggled and never defeated them in Montevideo in a South American championship or in a WC qualifier in the 20th century. Add to that all the shenanigans that accompanied the home team, Brazil’s odds were stacked against them.

Also, as you alluded to, at this point Pelè was also considered a player more concerned about other things than football, viewed critically by many in the local and foreign press as a ‘dead king’ that no longer was the force of the past. Then we factor in the history of what it takes to win there and of Pelè playing in Montevideo and the results were almost always negative with defeats to Uruguay (1960) to Nacional (‘61), Peñarol (‘64); Peñarol (‘65)… on 3 occasions he faced Uruguay (1959, 60 and 70) and never scored against them. So the task would have been very difficult.

It took a new crop of similar talents to emerge and mature by 1970 with the arrivals of Jairzinho (some believed he was the heir and even better than Garrincha) and Tostao, Gerson and Rivelino for the resurrection of Pelè, who was even close to being omitted from the NT in the prelude until the CBD dropped manager Saldaña for Zagallo.


Onto Diego…

Maradona
In fact in his case there wasn’t that much more ‘fortune’ because in 2 out of 3 of those editions he was carrying injuries (‘87 and ‘89) and the other one (‘79) he never finished due to the main priority shifting instead to the FIFA Youth World Cup which had overlapped.

Here again the tournament’s prestigious decline continued where AFA (Asociación del Fútbol Argentino) prioritized any FIFA tournaments at the expense of the CA. In fact in a dictum for 1979 the top of the list was the priority of the FIFA Youth World Championship:

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/d...ports-1976-1997.2109806/page-24#post-39270960

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/d...ports-1976-1997.2109806/page-24#post-39273092

Understanding this the Argentinian FA sent Maradona and manager Menotti away to Japan to bring further global prestige to the nation at the expense of the Copa América.

The ‘83 squad was Bilardo’s arrival as new manager that implemented a defensive system of catenaccio with an almost complete overhaul of the previous generation of Menotti’s men. Bilardo had made it always clear that the World Cup was all that mattered and he would use the Copa Americas as an examination to test players. Argentines (and for that matter Brazilians and Uruguayans) that played in European leagues were not going to make the trip down south at the detriment of the club’s own financial interests to have their assets unavailable. So only local players participated.

Even if Maradona had made the trip he’d have to travel back and forth between continents (the championship was phased out between months in-between) and this was the year they fractured his ankle in September, right in the middle of the Copa América. In addition, although Bilardo had backed Maradona as his number 10 when the time was right, there were certain local press voices that doubted his true value to the team after the sour ending to World Cup 1982, culminating in a sending off. So taken into account all factors it was not the right time nor was Maradona untouchable at this stage.

About the 1987 and ‘89 events more information about the details in the link below:

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/copa-america-historical-all-star-teams.2031461/#post-33955306

In regard to their standings, their place in the pantheon has to do with many factors, one of which was time and promotion. Pelè was part of the ascension and propaganda of black athletes during the peak of the civil rights era in the western world and the transition from B&W to color TV.

Civil Rights Act (1964)
https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/civil-rights-act

Black history (1964)
https://www.history.com/topics/black-history/civil-rights-act
Civil Rights Act (1957)
1963 Kennedy Civil Rights bill
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964

1968 Olympics Black power athlete salute
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Olympics_Black_Power_salute

Maradona was a part of the JVC video era and the World Cups were at the peak of satellite TV coverage around the world with billions of viewers and thousands of journalists.

The history of JVC as it skyrocketed in the late 1970s and 80s with VHS that coincided with Maradona’s arrival:
https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/how-jvc-forever-changed-the-future-of-film/

The World Cup at its peak



And both had tremendous influence in the propaganda machinery of marketing, endorsements and sponsorships.

But putting the propaganda aside, their success at the World Cup propelled them forever in the history of the world game. Pelè being part of the famous WC70 team and Maradona with what is considered by most accounts the most dominant performance in the color-TV era.

 

Sorry for the late reply mate, and thank you for your interest in the subject.

To your questions:

I think it makes no significant difference. At that point Pelè was too young being used as a substitute and was purely a goal-getter (a term used in the old fashion British lexicon for incomplete footballers). It was a team that had an aging Zizinho and an emerging Didi. Garrincha was just getting started and the Brazilian manager was Brandaõ, who had initially prioritized defense in 1956 over attack, and was criticized for their lack of goals. At that point Brazilian international football was viewed by at least Argentinian pundits as supremely talented but lacking the mental fortitude to win when it mattered most. In any event, Pelè made his NT debut in July of ‘57 and the South American championship had commenced prior, so it rules any theory out of the question.

Pelè was an ex-player by then. Lured by the temptation of millions that the NASL could pay him he came out of retirement. The Brazilian NT was again under the experienced Osvaldo Brandaõ, but who had never achieved success when called to manage the selecão. Most of the players were from the Mineraõ state championship, none were from Saõ Paulo, where Pelè had some sort of chemistry with the players from the year prior to his first retirement. Then factor in his body was in a post-footballing shape, accustomed at playing with college level type players in a semiprofessional league. The sternest tests in those years (1976) were exhibitions against the national teams of Italy and England, when in both games he represented the NASL All-stars. In both cases his squad lost 4-0 and 3-1, leaving an undistinguished impression.

However, at the Copa America this Brazilian team was in a better position to win it all since they had defeated a rebuilding mediocre Argentinian side and had the lottery draw against Peru gone in their favor it’s unlikely that Colombia would have beaten them in the finals. How much of an impact would Pelè at 34 years have made ? Possibly no different than the men that represented Brazil in the middle of the pitch. He would’ve been most likely used as an attacking midfielder for sure, but how much would he have sustained for 90 minutes without running out of gas ? Would he have been used as a sub? Does Brazil not lose to Peru ? Maybe. The Peruvian sides of the ‘70s were one of the best of their generation along with the 1980s generation teams. But even then, Brazil almost always had success against them and Pelè never lost against them either.

Well here Maradona has his pros and cons. He’s undoubtedly the established world footballer in 1991 carrying a whole decade behind him as the major star of the 1980s. He carries heavy leverage and is very savvy but at this point he’s upset many top tycoons in the political game. His recreational substance abuse is no longer being covered up by the top brass as he has since the 1990 World Cup rubbed them the wrong way (Italian federation and FIFA). They feel it’s time to send him a message and come down with the maximum punishment of 15 month suspension.

The 1991 Argentinian team is almost entirely a revamped squad over the Carlos Bilardo managed teams (1983-1990). They profess attack over defense, and AFA this time prioritizes the Copa America. The tournament itself is not of particularly high quality, with lots of rough play and with Brazil and Uruguay going through a renovating period in which they do not impress. The fields were in swampy terrible condition and the matches are played viciously. It’s the last tournament before the FIFA backpass rule is abolished and the last before non-South American teams are invited.

In an ideal situation if Maradona is available (new manager Alfio Basile said he was holding up the number 10 jersey for him once he returned) I have little doubt his impact would have been just as important than his replacement Leonardo Rodriquez.

By early 1993 he features in the Artemio Franchi Cup because he’s still playing in the top world football in the Spanish league but retires after a tumultuous end with his club Sevilla. The Copa America is played in June-July and he’s no longer available as he decides to hang up his boots. The ‘93 Argentinian team is not as strong as the previous one and rely heavily on Goycoechea’s penalty saves to take them through. This time Colombia is their biggest threat with a golden generation reaching their peak, as Argentina barely scrap through. But their true colors will reveal themselves 1 month later in a very disappointing WC qualifying campaign that sees the whole nation and media request vehemently Maradona’s return out of retirement after Colombia humiliate Argentina in Buenos Aires with a 5-0 win.

The 1995 and especially the ‘97 tournaments Maradona is a shell of his former-self and virtually an ex-player. Even then the team Argentina takes to Bolivia in 1997 is unworthy of championship pedigree and no one (maybe Veron) in Argentina is still considered better than him in the quarterback position. The problem is he can only give you a good 20-25 minutes by then and he’s at odds with new manager Daniel Passarrela. But I doubt anyone could’ve saved them.

 

BOLA – Pelé was Edson and attracted Vasco in the first game against the Portuguese (Brazil). (newsbeezer.com)



I'm not sure Pele having no potential effect in 1957 is right (albeit the fact is he didn't play in the Copa America).

 

Maradona would have a better chance of winning with Kempes, Fillol and Passarella if they all played together in all available editions but he seemed to have personal problems with them

 

The 1957 Brazilian South American side utilized Flamengo’s Evaristo and Santos’ Pepe as their main attack. The goalscoring that Evaristo achieved (mostly the 5 goals against Colombia) brought interest from Europe’s club Barcelona, which subsequently he would later represent in a partnership with Luis Suarez and Kubala. Pepe was the established attacking force at Santos and a regular starter for the NT. But plagued by injuries he missed out on representing Brazil at the 1958 and ‘62 World Cups.

The South American Championship of ‘57 played in Peru continued to align with the historical trajectory of Brazil: excellent against certain teams but struggling against Argentina and Uruguay. In both encounters they conceded 3 goals apiece in a 3-2 defeat to Uruguay (after the Charrúas were already ahead 3-0) and 3-0 loss to Argentina. Outside of Brazilian territory it took until 1997 for them to win their first SA championship on foreign soil.

 

The only issue was with Daniel Passarrela and that only occurred once newly appointed manager Carlos Bilardo handed over to Maradona the captain’s armband. The feud between former manager Cesar Luis Menotti and Carlos Bilardo became an ongoing issue for the rest of the 20th century. Bilardo in general cleaned and mopped up the Menotti clan, but he couldn’t ignore the importance of Passarrela, who was Menotti’s main guy, while Maradona became Bilardo’s top man, a clash of egos that appeared inevitable.

Systematically Menotti prioritized the skill and offensive predisposition with his teams utilizing wingers, playing defensively more of a zone game. Bilardo was the opposite. He eliminated the classical wingers that operated like Renè Houseman and implemented a defensive system with a sweeper at the back and preferred man markings. He utilized mostly the offside traps to stifle opponents on set pieces and, according to his own admission, invented the 3-5-2 tactical system that gave results at the 1986 World Cup — a system that paved the way for the West Germans to utilize in their successful 1990 campaign.

 

Some key observations. Any official player of the tournament prior to 1987 did not exist until Conmebol retroactively created arbitrarily their top players. However, in 1959 at the current time of the event and thereafter, unofficially Didi was unanimously voted by players/managers and pundits as the outstanding player of the 1959 tournament. Even in Brazilian tabloids he was considered the best.




Maybe by the 1975 championship Pelè would have received special attention and the calls would have gone in his favor. Perú also never defeated Brazil with Pelè in the lineup. I doubt Colombia in the finals would have beaten Brazil.

About the 1979 decider between Argentina vs Brazil in Buenos Aires that ended 2-2: Brazil’s most celebrated player at the time, Zico, was sent off early on. Had Maradona been on the field, the edge undoubtedly would have gone his way as he had been considered by local and Brazilian correspondents as the best performer in their previous encounter at the Maracaná. In two encounters up until that point, the 1979 South American Youth World Cup qualifiers 1-0 win and the Copa America 2-1 defeat, Maradona had been considered the most outstanding player against Brazil. However, even in the event had Argentina won, the potential final against a very good Paraguay would have been a challenge, with the Guaraníes eventually going on to win the tournament defeating Brazil.

 

That’s correct, mate.