How does OT affect the standings

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by bright, Sep 29, 2003.

  1. bright

    bright Member

    Dec 28, 2000
    Central District
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here are the OT records for all 10 teams thus far. In parentheses, you will find the number of points gained or lost in OT.

    Los Angeles 2-0 (+4)
    Kansas City 2-0 (+4)
    MetroStars 2-1 (+3)
    Chicago 1-0 (+2)
    Colorado 1-0 (+2)
    New England 1-1 (+1)
    San Jose 0-0 (0)
    Dallas 0-1 (-1)
    D.C. United 0-3 (-3)
    Columbus 0-3 (-3)

    Here is what the standings currently look like, with OT:

    1 49 San Jose 26 14-5-7
    2 43 Chicago 25 12-6-7
    3 38 Colorado 25 11-9-5
    4 38 MetroStars 26 10-8-8
    5 37 D.C. United 26 10-9-7
    6 33 New England 26 8-9-9
    7 32 Kansas City 26 8-10-8
    8 32 Los Angeles 26 8-10-8
    9 31 Columbus 26 8-11-7
    10 19 Dallas 26 5-17-4

    Here is what the standings would look like if there was not OT and ties stood at the end of 90 minutes:

    1 49 San Jose 26 14-5-7
    2 41 Chicago 25 11-6-8
    3 40 D.C. United 26 10-6-10
    4 36 Colorado 25 10-9-6
    5 35 MetroStars 26 8-7-11
    6 34 Columbus 26 8-8-10
    7 32 New England 26 7-8-11
    8 28 Kansas City 26 6-10-10
    9 28 Los Angeles 26 6-10-10
    10 20 Dallas 26 5-16-5

    - Paul
     
  2. Treetaliano

    Treetaliano Member

    Jun 29, 2002
    San Diego
    edit: You fixed your error before I finished this post
     
  3. Mountainia

    Mountainia Member

    Jun 19, 2002
    Section 207, Row 7
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    DC United has lost 3 overtime games this year, so DC would have 10-6-10 for 40 pts.
    4/12: 3-2 vs. KC
    7/5: 3-2 vs. Met
    9/20: 1-0 vs. LA
     
  4. bright

    bright Member

    Dec 28, 2000
    Central District
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: How does OT affect the standings

    Thanks for pointing that out. My post has been edited.

    - Paul
     
  5. Buzz Killington

    Buzz Killington Member+

    Oct 6, 2002
    Lee's Summit
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Kansas City only has one overtime win this year, they beat DC 3-2, that's the only time the Wizards have gotten 3 points in overtime. They should be 7-10-9
     
  6. bright

    bright Member

    Dec 28, 2000
    Central District
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [Updated to reflect corrections to KC's points. Also corrected the MetroStars points.]

    Here are the OT records for all 10 teams thus far. In parentheses, you will find the number of points gained or lost in OT.

    MetroStars 3-1 (+5)
    Los Angeles 2-0 (+4)
    Kansas City 1-0 (+2)
    Chicago 1-0 (+2)
    Colorado 1-0 (+2)
    New England 1-1 (+1)
    San Jose 0-0 (0)
    Dallas 0-1 (-1)
    D.C. United 0-3 (-3)
    Columbus 0-3 (-3)

    Here is what the standings currently look like, with OT:

    1 49 San Jose 26 14-5-7
    2 43 Chicago 25 12-6-7
    3 38 Colorado 25 11-9-5
    4 38 MetroStars 26 10-8-8
    5 37 D.C. United 26 10-9-7
    6 33 New England 26 8-9-9
    7 32 Kansas City 26 8-10-8
    8 32 Los Angeles 26 8-10-8
    9 31 Columbus 26 8-11-7
    10 19 Dallas 26 5-17-4

    Here is what the standings would look like if there was no OT and ties stood at the end of 90 minutes:

    1 49 San Jose 26 14-5-7
    2 41 Chicago 25 11-6-8
    3 40 D.C. United 26 10-6-10
    4 36 Colorado 25 10-9-6
    5 34 Columbus 26 8-8-10
    6 33 MetroStars 26 7-7-12
    7 32 New England 26 7-8-11
    8 30 Kansas City 26 7-10-9
    9 28 Los Angeles 26 6-10-10
    10 20 Dallas 26 5-16-5

    Quick analysis:

    Chicago has a game in hand, but D.C. United would be hot on their heels for 1st place in the East if it wasn't for OT.

    Columbus, MetroStars, and New England would be neck-and-neck for the race to avoid 5th place in the East. Looks like OT has really helped the Metros out this season as it has transformed a possible last place finish into a run for 1st place in the division.

    Dallas would still have a small chance of catching Los Angeles, who are too good of a team to be sucking so much. ;) LA plays at Chicago, at KC, and home and away with San Jose in their remaining games. Dallas plays New England at home, at KC, at Metros, and Colorado at home. Could Dallas make up 8 points with those schedules?

    San Jose's record looks even better when you take away OT.

    - Paul
     
  7. Agogwe

    Agogwe Member

    Sep 12, 2003
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I take from this that OT does make somewhat of a difference, but not enough to be conclusive whether OT should be eliminated or not. Good research though.
     
  8. JaguarCRO

    JaguarCRO New Member

    Aug 15, 2002
    Sunnyvale,CA
    Actually this is a very compelling arguement that OT makes a big difference. After all only 3 of the 10 teams would be in the same postion in single table standings (or for Supporter Shield consideration). In otherwords 70% of the teams have been affected signifcantly by this change. I certainly prefer the excitement of OT over the EPL method of just ending in a tie, even though my team has not gained or lost any points in OT.
     
  9. bright

    bright Member

    Dec 28, 2000
    Central District
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I found it easier to put everyone in a single table, laziness I guess. But maybe the effect of OT will be clearer by showing the standings by division. Is OT a league conspiracy in favor of the MetroStars and LA? ;)


    East with OT:
    43 Chicago 25 12-6-7
    38 MetroStars 26 10-8-8
    37 D.C. United 26 10-9-7
    33 New England 26 8-9-9
    31 Columbus 26 8-11-7

    East without OT:
    41 Chicago 25 11-6-8
    40 D.C. United 26 10-6-10
    34 Columbus 26 8-8-10
    33 MetroStars 26 7-7-12
    32 New England 26 7-8-11


    West with OT:
    49 San Jose 26 14-5-7
    38 Colorado 25 11-9-5
    32 Kansas City 26 8-10-8
    32 Los Angeles 26 8-10-8
    19 Dallas 26 5-17-4

    West without OT:
    49 San Jose 26 14-5-7
    36 Colorado 25 10-9-6
    30 Kansas City 26 7-10-9
    28 Los Angeles 26 6-10-10
    20 Dallas 26 5-16-5


    - Paul
     
  10. Khansingh

    Khansingh New Member

    Jan 8, 2002
    The Luton Palace
    Why are there so many ties? Is it parity?
     
  11. Sykotyk

    Sykotyk Member

    Jun 9, 2003
    Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The question remains... how would the games have played out in the final five or ten minutes had the teams known there would be no overtime?

    Sykotyk
     
  12. Haig

    Haig Member+

    May 14, 2000
    METROSTARS
    Club:
    --other--
    And we have a winner!
     
  13. Agogwe

    Agogwe Member

    Sep 12, 2003
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  14. CleanSteve

    CleanSteve New Member

    Aug 14, 2003
    SF
    Why was OT even included in the MLS format?... To avoid draws?...The Old saying that it's like kissing your sister?....

    Well, draws occur often anyway.

    It's an intermediate step away from those oh-so- exciting "shootouts", but MLS should kill OT. It's a great way get good (tired) players hurt.
     
  15. Agogwe

    Agogwe Member

    Sep 12, 2003
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  16. 352gialloblu

    352gialloblu New Member

    Jun 16, 2003
    England
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I've been keeping track of this, too, on my crappy site: http://www.geocities.com/wolfmanjack13/mls.html. (Nothing more than what he's got, really, and it's a match or two out of date).

    What surprised me was that there have been 36 draws, and only 8 overtime results. That means only 18% of OT games get their golden goal. It makes a big difference in the standing (especially for DC and the Metros), but I don't think it is necessary. It has produced some exciting moments lately (Wolyniec's goal, Franchino's free-kick, etc), but mostly it's just 10 minutes of tired, ugly soccer. I wouldn't be sad to see it go, but Ive realized I don't mind it too much. It's much better than it used to be...
     
  17. Sykotyk

    Sykotyk Member

    Jun 9, 2003
    Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To argue and say that hockey has ties as a justification for them is lacking. Hockey is easily the 4th team sport in the U.S.

    When the MLB All-Star Game ended in a tie, or the Atlanta-Pitsburgh NFL game, or the N.Y. Giants-Washington game or Philadelphia-Baltimore game ended in a tie several years ago on back-to-back weeks... there was always a huge uproar over the result.

    Ties just aren't part of the U.S. sports culture anymore. Baseball has never had them, officially, unless a game was postponed for weather when it was tied and could not be made up. But only the player statistics were saved, the resulting tie is not recorded. The NBA has never had ties, since a five-minute overtime has been able to general resolve ties. And if not, a few more certainly can. The NFL and NCAA used to never have tie games. But as the teams got closer and closer in ability, the frequency of tie-games, and the desire to have a result, led to overtime. The NCAA was the last to remove ties (they did so completely), by making the teams play an unlimited number of overtimes until there's a winner.

    Hockey's had ties, and went to a five-minute regular season overtime. Personally, I don't like it. Because it changes how the game is played in the final two or three minutes. And I can't stand the 4-on-4 overtime the NHL uses now.

    Sykotyk
     
  18. bright

    bright Member

    Dec 28, 2000
    Central District
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Actually, American football games used to have ties a few times a year before they instituted overtime, and I personally don't see anything wrong with that. Especially for football where the clock is such a big deal, which to me makes overtime even more unfair in the NFL than in MLS.

    Check out http://www.nfl.com/history/standings/ to see what NFL standings have looked like in the past. 1932 in particular had a lot of ties with only 8 teams in the league: http://www.nfl.com/history/standings/1932

    I don't think OT is necessarily a sporting phenomenon as much as it is a marketing phenomenon. It is kind of like a buy-one-get-one-free promotion or a "now with 10% more flavor" sticker on a grocery store product. I am sure that when it was instituted, people didn't mind ties, but the first time they experienced OT they thought: "gee whiz, I am getting more product for my money". That is really what makes it American, not this notion that Americans *need* a winner.

    And casual fans don't really care about fair competition, they just want to be entertained. They aren't following the entire season or know anything about the players or strategy anyways. For all they care, you could change up the rules and make a mockery of the sport as long as it is entertaining (for an example, look at the circus of stupid rules that the NFL has become ... or how about "illegal defense" in the NBA).

    - Paul
     
  19. Agogwe

    Agogwe Member

    Sep 12, 2003
    Ann Arbor, MI
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Excellent point. I never really considered OT from a marketing standpoint. But for MLS, wouldn't you think the decision to put in overtime was in large part due to the current sporting culture in the U.S., which seems to need OT?

    BTW, I'm in complete agreement with you on the "circus" of rules that as infiltrated many of the "Big Four" sports, especially the NFL.
     
  20. diablodelsol

    diablodelsol Member+

    Jan 10, 2001
    North Ridgeville, OH
    The nature of the game. I'd be willing to bet that there is no greater percentage of ties in MLS than any league in the world.
     

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