Holland played the Ref, they knew it would take a lot to send a guy off in the 1st half of the World cup final under the watchful eye of the entire planet. So they abused the game to stiffle the Spanish, Van Bommel after recieving a yellow in the firsthalf continued to test Webb's metal. This was an outrageous game plan, giving Webb the option of prolonging for the benefit of World entertainment or sending off players early on and effectively ruining the biggest and most anticipated game over the last 4 years. Before the match I was all Orange but as it grew Spain all the way for me, never did I expect such lame tactics from the cultured Dutch.
I understand and appreciate peoples feelings about the Dutch approach to the game. It was pretty sad. I just don't get people blaming the Dutch play for Webb's poor performance. He had a great opportunity to calm things down by sending off DeJong. He saw the kick to the chest and didn't send him off for it. That decision had a HUGE impact on the rest of the game. Not to mention that Spain were awarded a goal kick in extra time that OBVIOUSLY went off a Spanish player in the wall AND was tipped further by Casillas. This was off a dead ball free kick and was still missed by the officiating crew. That's inexcusable. They were poor, and the fact that nearly half of the people who responded to this poll suggest that he did a good job shows that there are a lot of officials here who are incapable of being objective. The mere fact that FIFA has lauded Webb for his performance should be a pretty good indicator of how poor he actually was, because we know that half of what comes out of FIFA is lies to cover up their inadequacies. This is no different.
How? Spain won the game, im sure if he'd sent off De Bong then Spain would have still won. Then we could all berate Webb for ruining the game by sending a player off who accidently kicked a Spanish player while trying to hook the ball. This whole De Jong incident is ofcourse taking into account whether Webb actually saw the incident clearly, while we pour over the replay and mock. This was poor, but ultimately didn't effect the outcome of the goal as Holland regained possesion only to give it away again before the goal. So if they'd said he was crap, then that would have meant he was good?
LOL Apparently, "objective" means: agrees with your opinion. ------- BTW, I chose the poll wording to match the UK.yahoo poll. Its interesting to see how similar the results are.
I rated him as "good". Not great, not perfect....good. My review is based on the play and type of game he was presented by the players and how he handled said game.
His performance was the worst I have ever seen. Four straight send offs should have been given. He was a pathetic, cowardly, wimp who lost control of the game in the 1st minute. New record, almost double the number of cards given in a final. He is an absolute disgrace to all other referees - if he doesn't resign on his own, he should be thrown out on his tail by the idiots running FIFA>
10-year member of Big Soccer, haven't posted in over a year, and you jump in to make 1. some very strong negative opinions about the referee in the World Cup final (you are entitled to do this); and 2. some disparaging remarks about another poster on this forum who has said nothing mean to you (you are NOT entitled to do this). I guess it's safe to say you really feel strongly that Howard Webb's performance was poor. However, you really have not given any evidence or analysis to support your opinion.
BLuedevils - being a long, long time FIFA referee, I base my comments on experience in high level games. My opinion seems to be backed up by one of the legends of the game, a Dutchman no less - he even thinks they should have been down to 9 men in the first several minutes of the game - Van Bommel should have been tossed in the first minute. As for my comment about Ref Flunkie, I apologize, but just cannot understand how anyone could rate this as a good performance. Johan Cruyff Quote: "Regrettably, sadly, they played very dirty. So much so that they should have been down to nine immediately, then they made two [such] ugly and hard tackles that even I felt the damage," he said. "This ugly, vulgar, hard, hermetic, hardly eye-catching, hardly football style, yes it served the Dutch to unsettle Spain. If with this they got satisfaction, fine, but they ended up losing. They were playing anti-football." Cruyff has also joined in with the criticism of Webb, claiming he should have been harder on the Dutch. "A World Cup final deserves great refereeing and, above all, deserves a referee who dares to do everything it means to be a judge."
Perhaps you realize that other longtime FIFA referees actually rate Webb's performance in this match very highly.
It wasn't a good performance. edit: But it has to be said, the players didn't make it at all easy for him. What the hell ever happened to sportsmanship or fair play?
FIFA would like: Players to exhibit fair play and good sportmanship Teams to passionately strive to win the World Cup Use the same rules that have been used for years on every level Now choose two.
It doesn't matter one iota if he accidentally kicked him in the chest. It was a straight red card offence. It wasn't called as such for one of two reasons: 1-He didn't think it warranted a red card. I find this idea ridiculous but it could happen. 2- He didn't see it. Either way....poor officiating. As for affecting the game.....a red card there would have sent a message to the players. Enough! No more of this garbage or you're getting sent off. Instead, the players were told that almost anything goes. This, in turn, resulted in the Dutch continuing with their dirty play AND the Spanish embellishing a lot of fouls just to get them called. That's how Webb's actions affected the game. Maybe...but that's not what we're talking about. This wasn't a hard call to make. It was VERY obvious that it went off the wall...but why didn't Webb see it or call it? Easy....he missed it...because he was poor. He never had control of that game. Despite all the cards. No...I can understand disagreement...except when it's the very often used "maybe he didn't see it from the same angle/he doesn't have the luxury of replay like we do" excuse. It always comes out because it's a catch all. Webb was more than close enough to see the DeJong drop kick. Calling a yellow card there implies that he saw it. Now...how do you see an action like that and give a yellow card? What is the thought process? Please show me how to define that any other way other than "violent play". Then....how do you tell me that Webb did a good job? It makes no sense...unless you youself are an official. Then it makes a lot of sense because so many people think that if I'm being critical of a person who has the same job as you means it must mean that I'm being critical of you (by you I mean in general. not you specifically jayhonk). It's just not the case. I try to judge each incident on its own merit. Like I said. The Dutch play made it difficult for Webb. Unfortunately Webb did not rise to the occasion, but rather, failed and had a negative impact on the game. That's why I think he was poor.
I'll skip the part where I disagree with a lot of your specific points, and say I see what you are saying and you are right. As a referee I view what you consider errors and see situations that occur every game. A player runs between me and the play just as contact occurs. What do you call? You infer what happened from the players reactions, make a call and try to move on. A shot on goal may or may not have deflected off the defense. Corner or GK? You try to read the players, without taking too long and the players noticing it, then you make a call. Is it right? You find out later, but for now you just try to move the game along and get the players to focus on the present, not the past. Some games, by their importance, you try to keep the players on the field. If the players play, then its all good. But if the players came to hack each other and carp about the calls, the game is going to be ugly, and you try to put on a brave face and survive. So, yes, when you say the referee missed these 6 calls, and that is why he sucked, as a referee my reaction is those kinds of calls are missed every game, every game. But when you say the game sucked, the referee missed 6 calls and that is what made the game suck, then I just disagree. After an easy game with lots of flow, often coaches or parents will say we had a great game, and my reaction is: No, the players just came to play. Conversely, when we have a game like Webb had, where we try every trick in the book to make the players focus on the game and they just won't. And at the end, the parents are grumbling and the coaches are grumbling and the players are pissed off. And they might think I ruined the game, well I just think to myself, Hey, they give me a whistle, not a magic wand. So, yes, maybe I do take criticism of Webb a bit personally. But not because of the simplistic I am a ref, he is a ref; but because the mistakes that you are calling him out for happen all the time, and because it is my opinion that this game was not going to go smoothly, no matter what he did. And what he did do is try to referee a World Cup Final giving the players the greatest latitude possible (which is what the fans want) while keeping control of himself and of the match--unfortunately, and it is not his fault, the players really preferred not to kick the ball, but kick each other. So, yeah, I am one of the crazy 46% who think H Webb did a "Good" job. --------------- So much for being reasonable. This comment is just plain BS. --->
You ask your assistants, who happen to be among the best in the world. Also, you don't whistle off a 2-v-2 advantage unless you are going to show red. Sometimes this is hard to tell. Other times, we get it wrong is because we have screwed up. Either Webb screwed up an obvious one, or else he gave a make-up after realizing his previous foul call was an error. What if it's only one team that comes out with an obvious gameplan of hacking the daylights out of the other team? In this game, Spain's players were forced to run away from challenges to avoid getting kicked. One of its stars spent most of the game in obvious pain after a brutal challenge. And unsurprisingly, Spanish players retaliated. Fortunately for everyone, neither Puyol's foul nor Iniesta's hip check quite reached the level of a sending off. Fans want many things, but no fan I know makes it a top priority to give players enormous latitude, especially not at the World Cup Final. This is supposed to be the beautiful game, after all. What's more, FIFA has demanded that referees to protect skillful play by eradicating dangerous tackles and by sanctioning PI with a caution. Webb's decisions undermined referees around the world who seek to uphold these standards. Faced with obvious PI, he never even offered a clear warning. Webb has many admirers, and deservedly so, but even the best referees have days when they get things badly wrong. In such cases, it's best to admit they were poor and move on. Outside of this forum, his reviews have been dramatically less favorable.
Agree. Disagree. As a referee, I know it is not nearly that simple. There is no such guidance or rule of thumb. Sometimes you show a yellow card for game control, advantage be damned. I'm sorry, but you can't have it both ways. I must not be familiar with the 'fans you know,' because I am VERY confident that the general public, including football fans, would be outraged if Webb had sent off 2 or more players in the first half of the World Cup final. Perhaps it is just Englishmen sticking up for their countryman, but several former EPL referees -- including Graham Poll, who has been critical of top-flight English and non-English referees since he retired -- have defended Webb's performance and given him very high marks.
This guy should NEVER be selected for such an important match. He was just as nervous and clumbsy in giving out yellow cards as "de Jong or Heitinga" doing bad tackles! He gave too much yellows for nothing while leaving off some red cards as must! very bad referee - as in one of Cruiyff's comment about him: he should NEVER imposed his "own personal feeling" in changing the game with his power (of providing the cards)
The BBC website ran the headline "Referees leap to Howard Webb's defense," but Poll was the only one leaping. (They later changed the headline to "Webb faced hard task.") In that article, what Dermot Gallagher said was, "I don't think Webb's career is in tatters, like some are saying." That's a wonderful example of damning with faint praise. By the way, we've discussed this point before, but if Webb had called the game strictly, there's no reason to believe he would've needed to send off two players in the first half. 1. If van Persie had been shown an obvious yellow in the second minute, are you sure he would've have tested Webb again in minute 15? (If so, that's the red card.) 2. If van Persie hadn't done that, are you sure that Puyol would've gone straight into Robben's ankle one minute later? 3. If Puyol hadn't done that (or if Puyol had seen a debatable red), are you sure that a few minutes later, van Bommel would've leapt to slide forcefully through through Iniesta's calf? 4. If van Bommel hadn't done that (or if he had seen red), are you sure that a few minutes later, de Jong would've made his memorable challenge a few minutes later?
Well, I saw positive overall comments from Poll, Gallagher, and at least 1 other former EPL referee, Jeff Winter. I wasn't making it up. It is a valid point. I believe we'd have seen fewer yellow cards in the match if van Persie had seen yellow on this 1st minute challenge and de Jong had seen red on his karate kick. But we'll never know.
I don't want to make Webb out to seem like a bad referee - I was delighted when I heard he was chosen for the final. He had given what were refereeing clinics in his previous matches, flawless performances. But this game was going to be terrible no matter what. If he does the right, objective thing then the Dutch are down to 9 or 10 by the end of the first half, and it's a 5v5 by the end of the match (exageration but you know what I mean...). The players killed the match, and I can't blame Webb for that. Things weren't helped by the fact that the Spanish players sunk to Holland's level and threw in a lot of retaliatory challenges. So no matter WHAT Webb does, it's an awful match. He tried to let boys be boys, but the players looked like a bunch of pedantic children who wanted the ball.
Didn't mean to imply that you were, although as you suggested, I think the English-colored viewpoint may be different from the more general one. Anyway, even though we don't see eye-to-eye on everything, I've really enjoyed reading your comments ... as others have said, this forum has been an incredible place over the past month. Thanks to the mods and participants!
Im sure if England had made the final and played like the Dutch then there would be a euphoria of blaming England and defending the Ref for an impossible task of getting the English to play any other way. The Dutch game plan was low league anti-football and they got their just deserves.
I don't think he would. There's a reason the Dutch had 9 yellows and one red. They were playing like sly professionals not cowed schoolkids. But suppose he did? What would happen? Nothing. Nobody is going to throw van Persie out of the Final in the 15th minute for a bit of recklessness. He's going to get a stern talking to. Now is this really better? Maybe. But maybe letting it go in the first minute gives you better options later. About as sure as you are that it was retaliation and not just mistimed aggression. Um it's van Bommel. How sure are you looking for? I think de Jong was off in another world. I really don't think they all got together and said "We'll whack their legs every chance we get, but you Nigel go into a crowd with a high boot." I think it would happen anyway. I have no problem with a RC but in truth, de Jong didn't commit a foul after that and the game did get a little bit better, not worse. We can speculate all we want, but there's no reason to think that the game would have got better, worse, or stayed the same. Next time they will crack the whip, at least until Mueller gets sent off for handling in the WC Final, then they'll relax again...