High number of goals scored per match.

Discussion in 'Germany' started by   , Dec 6, 2004.


       New Member

    May 13, 2004
    Saint Tropez
    I was just browsing different leagues and noticed Bundesliga teams concede an unusually high amount of goals compared to other leagues.

    Only the Scottish league comes close to Bundesliga goal conceding.
    Is this evidence that Bundesliga defenders are on the same level as Scottish defenders or is it because the Bundesliga is more attacking than EPL, Spain, Italy and France?
  2. lond2345

    lond2345 Member

    Aug 19, 2002
    You tell us how many coaches in the Bundesliga are committed to attacking soccer and scoring lots of goals. You mention Spain, in Spain i know of real madrid and barcelona that have a CLUB POLICY to be entertaining.

       New Member

    May 13, 2004
    Saint Tropez
    Why don't you tell us.

    I already have my own assumption and that is Bundesliga defenders overall are crap.
  4. 96Squig

    96Squig Member

    Feb 4, 2004
    Hannover 96
    Nat'l Team:
    Maybe som eteams are just excellent the one minute and then very bad the next...
    But you compared more than the results of the last spieltag, didn'tyou? because that was kinda a lot of goals for BL1 ;-)

       New Member

    May 13, 2004
    Saint Tropez

    Well it was the catalyst which got me thinking about it.

    I took the top 5 teams in selected leagues and compared them.
    First numerical value is goals scored and second is goals conceded.
    Now I do understand that lower table clubs concede far more goals than the elite but what does this say about German clubs competing in Europe?


    Bayern Munich 31 18
    Schalke 04 25 20
    VfB Stuttgart 30 17
    Hannover 96 24 15
    Werder Bremen 35 18


    Barcelona 30 8
    Real Madrid 21 9
    Espanyol 16 8
    Valencia 22 11
    FC Sevilla 16 15


    Chelsea 31 6
    Arsenal 42 20
    Everton 20 14
    Man Utd 22 10
    Middlesbrough 24 18


    Juventus 27 7
    AC Milan 21 9
    Udinese 21 13
    Cagliari 22 22
    Palermo 12 9


    Lyon 22 7
    Lille 21 10
    Marseille 21 16
    Sochaux 21 15
    Auxerre 21 16


    PSV Eindhoven 39 5
    AZ Alkmaar 37 12
    Ajax Amsterdam 36 17
    Feyenoord Rotterdam 39 18
    Heerenveen 27 25


    Celtic 42 18
    Rangers 34 8
    Aberdeen 22 16
    Hibernian 27 25
    Hearts 18 13
  6. 96Squig

    96Squig Member

    Feb 4, 2004
    Hannover 96
    Nat'l Team:
    That is weird though
    the BL is supposed to be a more competative leauge than most other in Europe, which would mean that our bad teams are better than the spanish or italian bad teams, but at the other hand our good teams do not to well in Europe (just wait till the end of this season). Maybe you should look at how the overall results were last year? and I think it may be a part of it that our bad teams sometimes have really bad days and then lose badly (Gladbach and Freiburg this weekend for example...)

       New Member

    May 13, 2004
    Saint Tropez

    Indeed, the Bundesliga is more competitive when it comes to Champions League and UEFA cup spots as well as relegation spots but do you really think that is because of superior quality? Or is it overall lack of quality to set one team apart from another.
    By describing that the "good teams" do not do well in Europe contradicts your previous statement saying the "bad teams" are better than the Spanish or Italians.
    I love the Bundesliga but when you compare it to other leagues, the quality just isn't there. If the EPL is supposed to be a league where there are no tactics then what does that say of the Bundesliga when the top 5 German clubs conceded 20 more goals than that of the English.
  8. aloisius

    aloisius Member

    Jul 5, 2003
    Because those are all just stupid stereotypes.
    English league has good coaching, Bundesliga has quality.

    There’s a bit more goals in the Bundesliga this year than usually. Proves nothing.

       New Member

    May 13, 2004
    Saint Tropez

    Yes it was just an analogy to visualise the differences.

    Do you not think there is a connection to goals conceded to overall overall strength in Europe?

    and what quality do you speak of in the Bundesliga? If you're talking about "star" players, the EPL certainly boasts more.
  10. aloisius

    aloisius Member

    Jul 5, 2003
    Goals conceded in domestic competition prove nothing when it comes to overall strength in Europe. If German clubs can advance deep in European competition, while conceding a lot of goals at home it will only be a proof of Bundesliga’s strength, not weakness.
    It all comes down to performances in Europe. German teams were weak there in the previous 2 seasons, they are much improved this year. How improved, will see this week in Valencia and Leverkusen.

    English clubs overall have more money and bigger stars because the English fans are willing to spend more money on football than anyone else. But the difference is not as big as it is often made up to be.

       New Member

    May 13, 2004
    Saint Tropez
    Hmm I just find it surprising that Bundesliga teams concede so many goals, if there is a correlation to overall quality... I guess it's one for the statistic freaks.

    By the way eventhough off topic, there is a nice read at soccernet on Tasmania Berlin, the worst team in the history of the Bundesliga. I was astonished to read how many goals they conceded and scored in a year :D .
  12. aloisius

    aloisius Member

    Jul 5, 2003

    A claim could be made that it proves the higher quality of non-elite teams in Germany. But it’s a too small sample to claim anything.
  13. Alex_K

    Alex_K Member+

    Mar 23, 2002
    Braunschweig, Germany
    Eintracht Braunschweig
    Nat'l Team:
    What aloisius said. This guy rules, btw.
  14. wolfsburgh

    wolfsburgh Member

    Aug 6, 2001
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Agree with the following, which has been said a couple times: the top teams in Germany might allow more goals because the the competition is closer. It stands to reason that if the top teams have more quality games (say hypothetically speaking, the BL goes 12 teams deep, while the EPL may go 9 teams deep, while Serie A may go 6 teams deep, while the Spanish league may go 5 teams deep, while the Dutch League may go 3 teams deep), they are more likely to concede more goals.

    Also, this has been a weird, very competitive year in the BL, so a half-season sample proves next to nothing.
  15. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Looking at this historically, one cannot say that there is a definite correlation between league strenght and goals scored. Look at the Bundesliga of the late-70s/early-80s. Three Bundesliga clubs reached the UEFA-Cup semi final in 78/79, with Gladbach reaching the final and beating Red Star Belgrade. Fortuna Düsseldorf reached the ECII final (losing 3-4 to Barca) and Cologne reached the ECI semi final (losing 3-4 to Nottingham on aggregate). A year later, the UEFA-Cup semi final was all Bundesliga with four teams (needless to say, the final was all Bundesliga as well). Hamburg also reached the ECI final (unluckily losing 0-1 to Nottingham).

    Then the German NT also won the Euro 1980 (plus being unbeaten for almost three years, 1978 to 1981). It could be said the BL was the strongest league in Europe in those years.

    If you now look at the number of goals scored, the Bundesliga far outscored the English or Italian leagues (as it already did throughout the 70s). This illustrates that a higher goal scoring average does not automatically equal "crap" league. The Bundesliga of the 70s had many great defenders in Vogts, Beckenbauer, Höttges, Schulz, Schwarzenbeck, Rüssmann, Breitner, Bonhof, Kaltz, Förster and so on. Yet its goal average was always something between 3.0 and 3.5 goals per game. This is not necessarily due to crap defenders, as you see.

    At the same time, a unquestionably crap league like for example Cyprus or Malta usually has a higher scoring average than quality leagues. Surely this is more than anything else due to crap defending.

    So one can not draw definite conclusions from the numbers of goals scored in a league.
  16. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Tasmania is a special case in Bundesliga history.

    The German FA ruled in 1965 that the amount of Bundesliga teams would be increased from 16 to 18 (this was ruled only two weeks before the start of the new season!), which meant that the two relegated teams of the 64/65 season would stay in the first division (Schalke 04 and Karlsruher SC), despite having finished at the bottom of the table. During the same year, the German FA ruled that Hertha BSC Berlin had to be relegated due to financial difficulties (since there was no second Bundesliga, only regional leagues, it had to go back to the Berlin regional league, which was pretty crap).

    But out of political reasons, the German FA decided that there had to be at least one club from Berlin playing in the West German Bundesliga (to underline that West Berlin was part of West Germany). Thus it was decided to lift the "best" club from the Berlin regional league into the Bundesliga, which was Tasmania. Tasmania would have never managed to get into the first Division in the regular way, because it was simply too weak a team. And all this two weeks before the start of the new season! Tasmania had planned to play in the Berlin regional league and its roster of players was meant to fit the needs of that weak league, not the Bundesliga. Although Tasmania was overjoyed to suddenly be able to play first league football, it soon showed that they had no place in the Bundesliga, because they were a second or even third rate team at best.

    Tasmania never was a "real" first division side, it was more like a third division side that suddenly had to play in the first division, which explains why they did so badly in the 65/66 season.
  17. picaraza

    picaraza New Member

    Jul 27, 2003
    The only thing you need to know about German clubs competing in Europe:

    ** All three of the eligible Bundesliga teams (Bayern, Bayer Leverkusen, and Werder Bremen) are set to advance to the next round of Champions League.
    England stands to lose Liverpool. La Liga to lose Valencia,Deportivo La Coruña, and Real Madrid :). Serie A to lose Roma. Only France stands to see their three teams advance.

    ** Schalke and Stuttgart are looking like contenders for the Uefa Cup.
  18. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Here`s how Tasmania performed in the 1965-66 season:

    14-08-65 2-0 H Karlsruher SC, 81.000
    21-08-65 0-5 A Borussia Mönchengladbach, 33.000
    28-08-65 0-2 H Borussia Dortmund, 70.000
    04-09-65 1-5 A Hamburger SV, 25.000
    11-09-65 0-2 H Bayern Munich, 40.000
    18-09-65 2-7 A 1. FC Nuremberg, 14.000
    02-10-65 1-5 H Hannover 96, 25.000
    16-10-65 0-0 A 1. FC Kaiserslautern, 15.000
    20-10-65 0-2 H VfB Stuttgart, 15.000
    23-10-65 0-3 A Meidericher SV Duisburg, 12.000
    30-10-65 0-6 H 1. FC Cologne, 20.000
    06-11-65 0-5 A Werder Bremen, 12.000
    13-11-65 0-5 H TSV 1860 Munich, 10.000
    27-11-65 0-4 A Eintracht Frankfurt, 8.000
    11-12-65 1-3 A Borussia Neunkirchen, 15.000
    18-12-65 1-2 H Schalke 04, 4.000
    31-12-65 0-2 H Eintracht Brunswick, 3.000
    08-01-66 0-3 A Karlsruher SC, 25.000
    15-01-66 0-0 H Borussia Mönchengladbach, 1.000
    30-01-66 1-3 A Borussia Dortmund, 12.000
    05-02-66 0-4 H Hamburger SV, 8.000
    12-02-66 1-2 A Bayern Munich, 18.000
    26-02-66 0-1 H 1. FC Nuremberg, 4.000
    05-03-66 0-5 A Hannover 96, 12.000
    12-03-66 1-1 H 1. FC Kaiserslautern, 3.000
    19-03-66 0-2 A VfB Stuttgart, 10.000
    26-03-66 0-9 H Meidericher SV Duisburg, 1.500
    02-04-66 0-4 A 1. FC Cologne, 8.000
    09-04-66 1-1 H Werder Bremen, 1.200
    23-04-66 0-4 A TSV 1860 Munich, 22.000
    30-04-66 0-3 H Eintracht Frankfurt, 4.000
    14-05-66 1-3 A Eintracht Brunswick, 6.000
    21-05-66 2-1 H Borussia Neunkirchen, 2.000
    28-05-66 0-4 A Schalke 04. 8.000

    2 wins, 4 draws, 28 defeats
    8-60 points, 15:108 goals
  19. BMGuy

    BMGuy Member

    Bayern Munich
    Sep 6, 2004
    If you look at all german teams in the uefa competition this season, they've also scored a lot more than they've conceded. So cannot say bundesliga defenders are crap :cool:
  20. Tai Ga Wutz

    Tai Ga Wutz New Member

    Jun 4, 2002
    Amazing how the number of spectators at home developed, i.e. collapsed. Graph looked like a parabola.
  21. Tai Ga Wutz

    Tai Ga Wutz New Member

    Jun 4, 2002
    Sure, but what does it prove. First come two (or one?) knock out round(s) against teams not easy to spell. If they didn't score more goals, they'd not be playing any more. Then again, competition is comparatively weak in Uefa Cup, so wins and the occasional blow-out are somewhat expected. However, wasn't there a season in last few years, that saw them all not even hobble into round three?
  22. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    I have been checking my files on this. Here`s the Bundesliga goal & spectators average from 1963-64 to 1987-88:

    Season-Goals per game-Spectators per game
    1963-64: 3.57-25.000
    1964-65: 3.31-26.900
    1965-66: 3.22-23.200
    1966-67: 2.92-23.300
    1967-68: 3.24-20.000
    1968-69: 2.52-21.400
    1969-70: 3.10-20.000
    1970-71: 3.02-20.600
    1971-72: 3.25-17.900
    1972-73: 3.41-16.400
    1973-74: 3.54-20.500
    1974-75: 3.45-22.000
    1975-76: 3.29-24.200
    1976-77: 3.54-24.200
    1977-78: 3.31-25.900
    1978-79: 3.14-24.000
    1979-80: 3.34-23.000
    1980-81: 3.39-22.500
    1981-82: 3.53-20.500
    1982-83: 3.38-20.200
    1983-84: 3.58-19.300
    1984-85: 3.50-18.800
    1985-86: 3.24-17.700
    1986-87: 3.23-19.400
    1987-88: 3.09-19.000
  23. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002

    The football fans of Berlin first were enthusiastic about the sudden and unexpected promotion of Tasmania, and in the first match, that enthusiasm by the 80,000+ crowd drove the substandard Tasmania team to a victory, but it soon became clear that this side had no place among the first division sides, and thus interested fell steadily from game to game.

    But you gotta admire the minimum 1,000 fans that came to each home match, despite having to expect another hammer defeat. True fans!
  24. picaraza

    picaraza New Member

    Jul 27, 2003
    I wonder how many of those fans were the same game after game (i.e. Tasmania fans), and how many were there for one match only (i.e. fans of the visiting club).

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