I was just browsing different leagues and noticed Bundesliga teams concede an unusually high amount of goals compared to other leagues. Only the Scottish league comes close to Bundesliga goal conceding. Is this evidence that Bundesliga defenders are on the same level as Scottish defenders or is it because the Bundesliga is more attacking than EPL, Spain, Italy and France?
You tell us how many coaches in the Bundesliga are committed to attacking soccer and scoring lots of goals. You mention Spain, in Spain i know of real madrid and barcelona that have a CLUB POLICY to be entertaining.
Why don't you tell us. I already have my own assumption and that is Bundesliga defenders overall are crap.
Maybe som eteams are just excellent the one minute and then very bad the next... But you compared more than the results of the last spieltag, didn'tyou? because that was kinda a lot of goals for BL1 ;-)
Well it was the catalyst which got me thinking about it. I took the top 5 teams in selected leagues and compared them. First numerical value is goals scored and second is goals conceded. Now I do understand that lower table clubs concede far more goals than the elite but what does this say about German clubs competing in Europe? Germany: Bayern Munich 31 18 Schalke 04 25 20 VfB Stuttgart 30 17 Hannover 96 24 15 Werder Bremen 35 18 Spain: Barcelona 30 8 Real Madrid 21 9 Espanyol 16 8 Valencia 22 11 FC Sevilla 16 15 England: Chelsea 31 6 Arsenal 42 20 Everton 20 14 Man Utd 22 10 Middlesbrough 24 18 Italy: Juventus 27 7 AC Milan 21 9 Udinese 21 13 Cagliari 22 22 Palermo 12 9 France: Lyon 22 7 Lille 21 10 Marseille 21 16 Sochaux 21 15 Auxerre 21 16 Holland: PSV Eindhoven 39 5 AZ Alkmaar 37 12 Ajax Amsterdam 36 17 Feyenoord Rotterdam 39 18 Heerenveen 27 25 Scotland: Celtic 42 18 Rangers 34 8 Aberdeen 22 16 Hibernian 27 25 Hearts 18 13
That is weird though the BL is supposed to be a more competative leauge than most other in Europe, which would mean that our bad teams are better than the spanish or italian bad teams, but at the other hand our good teams do not to well in Europe (just wait till the end of this season). Maybe you should look at how the overall results were last year? and I think it may be a part of it that our bad teams sometimes have really bad days and then lose badly (Gladbach and Freiburg this weekend for example...)
Indeed, the Bundesliga is more competitive when it comes to Champions League and UEFA cup spots as well as relegation spots but do you really think that is because of superior quality? Or is it overall lack of quality to set one team apart from another. By describing that the "good teams" do not do well in Europe contradicts your previous statement saying the "bad teams" are better than the Spanish or Italians. I love the Bundesliga but when you compare it to other leagues, the quality just isn't there. If the EPL is supposed to be a league where there are no tactics then what does that say of the Bundesliga when the top 5 German clubs conceded 20 more goals than that of the English.
Because those are all just stupid stereotypes. English league has good coaching, Bundesliga has quality. There’s a bit more goals in the Bundesliga this year than usually. Proves nothing.
Yes it was just an analogy to visualise the differences. Do you not think there is a connection to goals conceded to overall overall strength in Europe? and what quality do you speak of in the Bundesliga? If you're talking about "star" players, the EPL certainly boasts more.
Goals conceded in domestic competition prove nothing when it comes to overall strength in Europe. If German clubs can advance deep in European competition, while conceding a lot of goals at home it will only be a proof of Bundesliga’s strength, not weakness. It all comes down to performances in Europe. German teams were weak there in the previous 2 seasons, they are much improved this year. How improved, will see this week in Valencia and Leverkusen. English clubs overall have more money and bigger stars because the English fans are willing to spend more money on football than anyone else. But the difference is not as big as it is often made up to be.
Hmm I just find it surprising that Bundesliga teams concede so many goals, if there is a correlation to overall quality... I guess it's one for the statistic freaks. By the way eventhough off topic, there is a nice read at soccernet on Tasmania Berlin, the worst team in the history of the Bundesliga. I was astonished to read how many goals they conceded and scored in a year .
A claim could be made that it proves the higher quality of non-elite teams in Germany. But it’s a too small sample to claim anything.
Agree with the following, which has been said a couple times: the top teams in Germany might allow more goals because the the competition is closer. It stands to reason that if the top teams have more quality games (say hypothetically speaking, the BL goes 12 teams deep, while the EPL may go 9 teams deep, while Serie A may go 6 teams deep, while the Spanish league may go 5 teams deep, while the Dutch League may go 3 teams deep), they are more likely to concede more goals. Also, this has been a weird, very competitive year in the BL, so a half-season sample proves next to nothing.
Looking at this historically, one cannot say that there is a definite correlation between league strenght and goals scored. Look at the Bundesliga of the late-70s/early-80s. Three Bundesliga clubs reached the UEFA-Cup semi final in 78/79, with Gladbach reaching the final and beating Red Star Belgrade. Fortuna Düsseldorf reached the ECII final (losing 3-4 to Barca) and Cologne reached the ECI semi final (losing 3-4 to Nottingham on aggregate). A year later, the UEFA-Cup semi final was all Bundesliga with four teams (needless to say, the final was all Bundesliga as well). Hamburg also reached the ECI final (unluckily losing 0-1 to Nottingham). Then the German NT also won the Euro 1980 (plus being unbeaten for almost three years, 1978 to 1981). It could be said the BL was the strongest league in Europe in those years. If you now look at the number of goals scored, the Bundesliga far outscored the English or Italian leagues (as it already did throughout the 70s). This illustrates that a higher goal scoring average does not automatically equal "crap" league. The Bundesliga of the 70s had many great defenders in Vogts, Beckenbauer, Höttges, Schulz, Schwarzenbeck, Rüssmann, Breitner, Bonhof, Kaltz, Förster and so on. Yet its goal average was always something between 3.0 and 3.5 goals per game. This is not necessarily due to crap defenders, as you see. At the same time, a unquestionably crap league like for example Cyprus or Malta usually has a higher scoring average than quality leagues. Surely this is more than anything else due to crap defending. So one can not draw definite conclusions from the numbers of goals scored in a league.
Tasmania is a special case in Bundesliga history. The German FA ruled in 1965 that the amount of Bundesliga teams would be increased from 16 to 18 (this was ruled only two weeks before the start of the new season!), which meant that the two relegated teams of the 64/65 season would stay in the first division (Schalke 04 and Karlsruher SC), despite having finished at the bottom of the table. During the same year, the German FA ruled that Hertha BSC Berlin had to be relegated due to financial difficulties (since there was no second Bundesliga, only regional leagues, it had to go back to the Berlin regional league, which was pretty crap). But out of political reasons, the German FA decided that there had to be at least one club from Berlin playing in the West German Bundesliga (to underline that West Berlin was part of West Germany). Thus it was decided to lift the "best" club from the Berlin regional league into the Bundesliga, which was Tasmania. Tasmania would have never managed to get into the first Division in the regular way, because it was simply too weak a team. And all this two weeks before the start of the new season! Tasmania had planned to play in the Berlin regional league and its roster of players was meant to fit the needs of that weak league, not the Bundesliga. Although Tasmania was overjoyed to suddenly be able to play first league football, it soon showed that they had no place in the Bundesliga, because they were a second or even third rate team at best. Tasmania never was a "real" first division side, it was more like a third division side that suddenly had to play in the first division, which explains why they did so badly in the 65/66 season.
The only thing you need to know about German clubs competing in Europe: ** All three of the eligible Bundesliga teams (Bayern, Bayer Leverkusen, and Werder Bremen) are set to advance to the next round of Champions League. England stands to lose Liverpool. La Liga to lose Valencia,Deportivo La Coruña, and Real Madrid . Serie A to lose Roma. Only France stands to see their three teams advance. ** Schalke and Stuttgart are looking like contenders for the Uefa Cup.
Here`s how Tasmania performed in the 1965-66 season: Date-Score-Home/Away-Opponent-Spectators 14-08-65 2-0 H Karlsruher SC, 81.000 21-08-65 0-5 A Borussia Mönchengladbach, 33.000 28-08-65 0-2 H Borussia Dortmund, 70.000 04-09-65 1-5 A Hamburger SV, 25.000 11-09-65 0-2 H Bayern Munich, 40.000 18-09-65 2-7 A 1. FC Nuremberg, 14.000 02-10-65 1-5 H Hannover 96, 25.000 16-10-65 0-0 A 1. FC Kaiserslautern, 15.000 20-10-65 0-2 H VfB Stuttgart, 15.000 23-10-65 0-3 A Meidericher SV Duisburg, 12.000 30-10-65 0-6 H 1. FC Cologne, 20.000 06-11-65 0-5 A Werder Bremen, 12.000 13-11-65 0-5 H TSV 1860 Munich, 10.000 27-11-65 0-4 A Eintracht Frankfurt, 8.000 11-12-65 1-3 A Borussia Neunkirchen, 15.000 18-12-65 1-2 H Schalke 04, 4.000 31-12-65 0-2 H Eintracht Brunswick, 3.000 08-01-66 0-3 A Karlsruher SC, 25.000 15-01-66 0-0 H Borussia Mönchengladbach, 1.000 30-01-66 1-3 A Borussia Dortmund, 12.000 05-02-66 0-4 H Hamburger SV, 8.000 12-02-66 1-2 A Bayern Munich, 18.000 26-02-66 0-1 H 1. FC Nuremberg, 4.000 05-03-66 0-5 A Hannover 96, 12.000 12-03-66 1-1 H 1. FC Kaiserslautern, 3.000 19-03-66 0-2 A VfB Stuttgart, 10.000 26-03-66 0-9 H Meidericher SV Duisburg, 1.500 02-04-66 0-4 A 1. FC Cologne, 8.000 09-04-66 1-1 H Werder Bremen, 1.200 23-04-66 0-4 A TSV 1860 Munich, 22.000 30-04-66 0-3 H Eintracht Frankfurt, 4.000 14-05-66 1-3 A Eintracht Brunswick, 6.000 21-05-66 2-1 H Borussia Neunkirchen, 2.000 28-05-66 0-4 A Schalke 04. 8.000 2 wins, 4 draws, 28 defeats 8-60 points, 15:108 goals
If you look at all german teams in the uefa competition this season, they've also scored a lot more than they've conceded. So cannot say bundesliga defenders are crap
Amazing how the number of spectators at home developed, i.e. collapsed. Graph looked like a parabola.
Sure, but what does it prove. First come two (or one?) knock out round(s) against teams not easy to spell. If they didn't score more goals, they'd not be playing any more. Then again, competition is comparatively weak in Uefa Cup, so wins and the occasional blow-out are somewhat expected. However, wasn't there a season in last few years, that saw them all not even hobble into round three?
I have been checking my files on this. Here`s the Bundesliga goal & spectators average from 1963-64 to 1987-88: Season-Goals per game-Spectators per game 1963-64: 3.57-25.000 1964-65: 3.31-26.900 1965-66: 3.22-23.200 1966-67: 2.92-23.300 1967-68: 3.24-20.000 1968-69: 2.52-21.400 1969-70: 3.10-20.000 1970-71: 3.02-20.600 1971-72: 3.25-17.900 1972-73: 3.41-16.400 1973-74: 3.54-20.500 1974-75: 3.45-22.000 1975-76: 3.29-24.200 1976-77: 3.54-24.200 1977-78: 3.31-25.900 1978-79: 3.14-24.000 1979-80: 3.34-23.000 1980-81: 3.39-22.500 1981-82: 3.53-20.500 1982-83: 3.38-20.200 1983-84: 3.58-19.300 1984-85: 3.50-18.800 1985-86: 3.24-17.700 1986-87: 3.23-19.400 1987-88: 3.09-19.000
Indeed. The football fans of Berlin first were enthusiastic about the sudden and unexpected promotion of Tasmania, and in the first match, that enthusiasm by the 80,000+ crowd drove the substandard Tasmania team to a victory, but it soon became clear that this side had no place among the first division sides, and thus interested fell steadily from game to game. But you gotta admire the minimum 1,000 fans that came to each home match, despite having to expect another hammer defeat. True fans!
I wonder how many of those fans were the same game after game (i.e. Tasmania fans), and how many were there for one match only (i.e. fans of the visiting club).