I used to be a big baseball fan and still enjoy the games. I once had this dream to go to the baseball hall of fame. I love history as well and the thought of touring a museum dripping in the past was a real travel goal. Well, in the past few years, they had the opportunity to admit living legends who were both deserving of the honor and they blew it. First was Buck O'Neil. Buck was a first baseman on some of the most dominant Negro League teams in history . . . The KC Monarchs of the 30s and 40s. He was later a manager of the Monarchs and I believe he was tied to Jackie Robinson at the time and may have helped to grease the skids to get him to the Dodgers. He had a very solid career as both a player and manager. He then was the first African American coach in the major leagues when he moved from a position as a scout to the dugout with the Chicago Cubs in 1962. He was then the greatest ambassador the game could possibly have for many more decades until his death in 2006. O'Neil was a member of the 18-member Baseball Hall of Fame Veterans Committee from 1981 to 2000 and played an important role in the induction of six Negro league players from 1995–2001 during the time the Hall had a policy of inducting one Negro leaguer per year. O'Neil was nominated to a special Hall ballot for Negro league players, managers, and executives in 2006, but received fewer than the necessary nine votes (out of twelve) to gain admission; however, 17 other Negro league figures were selected. "God's been good to me. They didn't think Buck was good enough to be in the Hall of Fame. That's the way they thought about it and that's the way it is, so we're going to live with that. Now, if I'm a Hall of Famer for you, that's all right with me. Just keep loving old Buck. Don't weep for Buck. No, man, be happy, be thankful". Of the 17 Negro League figures voted in, one was a white woman who was an owner of one of the teams. After this incredible snub, the 94 year old O'Neil still spoke at the induction ceremony for the others. I was just about done with the Hall at that point, but Buck's amazing attitude won me over. Now, after years of crushing disappointment, these asshats induct Ron Santo . . . the year after he died. Seriously? He quit playing in the mid-70s and wasn't deserving to be in your stinking hall all of these years, but now that he is dead and can't enjoy the honor he is good enough? A little sour grapes and venting can go a long way.
Repalce Ron Santo with Gil Hodges and I share your sentiments exactly. Although Gil has been dead since 71 and he is still getting the shaft.
If it was Mule Suttles we were talking about, I'd be with ya here. But he's in now. O'Neil got him in. And Buck O'Neil was a great man and absolutely should be inducted in the contributors section, just ahead of Lefty O'Doul. But as a ballplayer, he was a quality first baseman for a long career, that's all. There were five or six better players on the field almost every league game he ever played. I think a lot of folks confuse Buck O'Neil with Buck Leonard... Its not just Hodges, but Cash, Cavaretta, Lu Blue, Rudy York, Karros, Tino Martinez, Garvey... the line ahead of O'Neil is long, and those are just the first basemen, and probably not all of them. I'm working from memory here. How about Rusty Staub, Indian Bob Johnson, Harlond Clift, Harold Baines, Ted Simmons, Vada Pinson, Lou Whitaker, Roy White, Don Newcomb, Ken Boyer, Bill Freehan, George Van Haltren, Bill Dahlen and so on and so forth. Personally I think Amos Otis was a better player. Maybe Double Duty Radcliffe. Pretty much the whole "friends of Frankie Frisch" group of inductees were as good or better players as Buck-- and we're trying to figure out how to get them out, not how to find more... He was a quality player and a great man; but he devoted a huge portion of his life to preserving an accurate picture of the Negro Leagues. It seems a disservice to distort that picture in the effort to do him a favor now that he's gone.
Sunday night I went to a comedy club to see Greg Proops do his "Smartest Man in the World" podcast. He went on a 10 minute rant about O'Neil nearly identical to yours. And to taosjohn's point, he didn't claim that O'Neil should be in the Hall because of his playing stats...but because of everything else he did.
I never attempted to distort O'Niel's playing career. I only said he was a solid player. That is why I spent more time talking about his time as a manager and the fact that he was the first black coach in major league baseball. If you are putting in front office people and owners for their contribution to the Negro Leagues when they never swung a bat, then there should have been a place for Buck And Russ, he was the first black coach FOR the Cubs. I never compared him as a player to Santo. Btw, Taos, I think you understate his value a bit. He might not have been the best player on any of those great teams but he had five or six years of hitting for a high average and being a great defensive player. But I never argued that he deserved to go in on his merits as a player alone.
Amos Otis wasn't much of a hitter. Of all those you named - maybe Lou Whitaker and Ted Simmons (his quality wore off quick) are the only ones. I loved Rusty Staub as a Met fan in the 70's and 80's, but he is not a HOF'er. Met him on the street in lower Manhattan in 1988. He talked with me for about five minutes. Would not sign an autograph (wouldn't sign in public - I had the Davey Johnson book about the '86 Mets with me) but was glad to talk until his car showed up. Very nice guy.
You are right about Rusty. Sweet guy and a solid player but not a HOFer. Now Keith Hernandez, that's another story.
If Gil Hodges is a Hall of Famer, then, well, the Hall of Fame is gonna be pretty damn crowded once all the players as good or better than him get inducted. It's alot easier to name guys better than Gil who aren't in than it is to name guys worse who are in, especially once you exclude teammates of Frankie Frisch whom he got inducted. (Fred Lindstrom???)
My understanding is that you go in as a player, or as a manager. You don't go in for being pretty good in both categories. He's not HOF material as a manager alone, obviously.
The whole thread is predicated on Buck O' Neil being a great 'ambassador' for the game for his inclusion. Hodges gets points for both, and sad to say for the rest of you, the pre-70's hall of fame is such a museum of New York baseball (though the Pirates and Cards are also well represented), that it is hard to understand how he has not made it, hell, playing in Brooklyn and managing NY. The Hall has a lot of 'good' former NY players (ahem, Pee Wee Reese and Phil Rizzuto) who had to wait quite a long time to get in. I mean, Jim Kaat came one vote closer than Gil. You want to argue good, I'm not sure Jim Kaat even qualifies as that.
Right? What's with the arbitrary player/coach/contributor shit? Did you contribute to the greatness of baseball enough that your deeds should be forever enshrined or not?
I'm in full agreement with Matt and Tom. Using my example, Buck O'Neil did many things including his efforts to preserve the history of the Negro Leagues at a time MLB probably would have liked to see that history just go away. That should be as worthy an achievement as any of the baseball writers or executives that are in have achieved.