Hermann Candidates

Discussion in 'College & Amateur Soccer' started by Sandon Mibut, Oct 21, 2003.

  1. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    Someone on another thread suggested a thread discussing potential Hermann Award candidates, speficially for those who weren't on the silly "watch list" the Hermann folks sent out earlier this season.

    So, I thought this would be a good place to discuss the award and potential and deserving (and not deserving) candidates.

    First, here's the list of players that were originally on the watch list. There stats are through Monday, 10/20/03.

    For backs and defensive mids, I've listed their team's g.a.a., as you can't judge those players by goals and assists alone. Also, next to the school's name is their record, which I don't think should be discounted, through Monday.

    Kevin Ara, Sr. MF, Harvard (5-4-3)
    12 games, 3 goals, 2 assists

    Ryan Cochrane, Jr. D, Santa Clara (10-2-3)
    15 games, 1 goal, 0 assists, 0.57 team g.a.a.

    Clint Dempsey, Jr. MF, Furman (3-6-4)
    11 games, 4 goals, 2 assists

    Ned Grabavoy, Jr. M, Indiana (7-3-4)
    14 games, 8 goals, 6 assists

    Matt Haefner, Sr. GK, Penn (4-4-2)
    9 games, 42 saves, 0.93 g.a.a.

    Will Hesmer, Sr. GK, Wake Forest (9-3)
    11 games, 35 saves, 0.91 g.a.a.

    Sumed Ibrahim, Sr. M, Maryland (12-1)
    11 games, 6 goals, 2 assists

    Antou Jallow, Jr. F, Wisconsin-Milwaukee (10-4-1)
    14 games, 6 goals, 2 assists

    Aaron Lopez, Jr. M, UCLA (11-1)
    12 games, 12 starts, 0 goals, 0 assists, 0.50 team g.a.a.

    Guy Melamed, Jr. D, Boston College (6-5-3)
    14 games, 0 goals, 1 assist, 0.60 team g.a.a.

    Joseph Ngwenya, Sr. F, Coastal Carolina (10-2)
    12 games, 11 goals, 10 assists

    Abe Thompson, Jr. F, Maryland (12-1)
    10 games, 4 goals, 4 assists

    David Wagenfuhr, Sr. D, Creighton (7-3-3)
    13 games, 1 goal, 3 assists, 0.71 team g.a.a.

    Jeremiah White, Sr. F, Wake Forest (9-3)
    8 games, 3 goals, 2 assists

    Chris Wingert, Sr. D, St. John’s (10-4-1)
    14 games, 1 goal, 1 assist, 0.94 team g.a.a.

    Some of these players, like Ara, Dempsey, Sumed, Jallow, Thompson and White - are NOT having the kid of season that should win them the Hermann. (I said should because college soccer is very political and the voters are often lazy so it's not impossible.)

    Obviously they could turn their season around the last month, but at this point, they don't look like legit Hermann candidates.
  2. USAClash

    USAClash Member

    Feb 9, 1999
    How about Memo Arzate of UCSB. He averages .96 assists a game in his career. That is the greatest assist average in nearly 50 years. In just his second year as a Gaucho, he has already set the conference all-time assist mark.
  3. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    And, here is a list of worthy players who weren't on the watchlist. They are posted here based on what they have done this year, not some silly list of projected performance.

    I didn't include any freshmen because the odds of a frosh winning the award are very slim. To do so, they'd have to be head-and-shoulders above the rest of the players in college soccer and while there are some great freshmen this year, none are in that category.

    Obviously,this list is not absolute and I encourage others to debate whom I included and to put other players up for consideration. In doing so, please don't just write their name, but say why you think they should be included and back it up with some stats.

    Memo Arzate, Sr. M, UC Santa Barbara (9-1-1)
    11 games, 4 goals, 11 assists

    Scott Buete, Sr. M, Maryland (12-1)
    13 games, 2 goals, 2 assists, 0.40 team g.a.a.

    Knox Cameron, Jr. F, Michigan (11-4)
    15 games, 8 goals, 9 assists

    Adom Crew, Sr. F, Brown (7-2-2)
    11 games, 7 goals, 2 assists

    Adolfo Gregorio, Sr. M, UCLA (11-1)
    11 games, 2 goals, 9 assists

    Alan Gordon, Sr. F, Oregon State (10-4)
    14 games, 11 goals, 3 assists

    Josh Gros, Sr. F, Rutgers (7-3-3)
    13 games, 11 goals, 5 assists

    Ryan Johnson, So. F, Oregon State (10-4)
    14 games, 0 goals, 13 assists

    Trevor McEachron, Jr. D, Old Dominion (12-0)
    12 games, 4 goals, 0 assists, 0.17 team g.a.a.

    Ryan Pore. So. F, Tulsa (10-3-1)
    14 games, 14 goals, 7 assists

    Seth Stamler, D, Maryland (12-1)
    13 games, 0 goals, 1 assist, 0.38 team g.a.a.

    Matt Taylor, Sr. F, UCLA (11-1)
    11 games, 12 goals, 1 assist
  4. terp fan

    terp fan New Member

    Nov 21, 2000

    Good start, to be continued.......
  5. lastword

    lastword New Member

    Sep 20, 2003
    College Park, MD
    Terp's picks

    Terp turd forgot to post his picks. I think we can assume they are as follows: Ibrahim, Garey, Thompson, Marcantonio, Herrera, Mediate, Buete, Goodson, Bertz, Stammler, Rodway, Lancos, Palmer, Terp Fan.
  6. KinleyDog

    KinleyDog New Member

    Aug 20, 2003
    S'nM, i don't get why these guys are on the list:

    Scott Buete, Sr. M, Maryland (12-1)
    13 games, 2 goals, 2 assists, 0.40 team g.a.a.
    i know he is the heart of their midfield, a tireless worker and a really good player, but for the hermann his goals and assist numbers are way down for a midfielder.

    Ryan Johnson, So. F, Oregon State (10-4)
    14 games, 0 goals, 13 assists
    a forward with no goals for the hermann. next, i'll be voted sexiest on the planet. 13 assists are interesting, but...

    Seth Stamler, D, Maryland (12-1)
    13 games, 0 goals, 1 assist, 0.38 team g.a.a.
    i'm sure this guy is a stud defender, but even tuman from uva has 2 goals..tuman!!
  7. Attacking Minded

    Attacking Minded New Member

    Jun 22, 2002

    Creates chances for himself but is easy to shut down because he does not create chances for his teammates and his team is having a hard time combining.

    11*2+10 = 32 pts = The Man.

    He is a pleasure to watch. He is a complete player. Mad foot skills, deceptive passer, tall, fast . . . .Wow. I wonder if there will be some anti-immigrant bias against him.

    PS - Better than any player, from the games I've seen, on USF, SLU, Clemson, Furman, USC, Duke . . . . .
  8. LuvDaBears

    LuvDaBears New Member

    Sep 4, 2002
    Attacking Minded...how do you rate this guy, Ngwenya compared to Vedad from SLU?
  9. Attacking Minded

    Attacking Minded New Member

    Jun 22, 2002
    On the ball they look very much the same. Vedad might be a little thicker but not by much.

    I think soccertom should give his prespective on Vedad for two reasons. First he has seen him play a lot more than I have. He has a more informed opinion. Second because in the two games that I saw Vedad play he seemed to play with his head down too much and his eyes on the goal too much. He seemed not to try to find his teammates as well as Ngwenya.

    That may have very well been Donigan's (coach's) doing rather than Vedad.

    Ngwenya seems to always play with his head up and looking around. The defense knows this and they tend to respect the players around him. This then leaves Ngwenya 1v1 and he beats people off the dribble to score goals. When he does lay the ball off, when the defense doesn't repect his playmaking abilities enough, he gets assists. I am not surprised that Ngwenya has almost as many assists as goals.

    Not to take ANYTHING away from Vedad, because one doesn't get to be the high scorer on the most surprising team in the NCAA without being very good, but Ngwenya is a rare player.

    PS - I just picked this up from the SLU web site:
    So Vedad is doing more and more playmaking. It really isn't fair for me to compare a Freshman SLU player with a senior Coastal player. SLU has a good future with John, Ibisevic and DiRiamondo playing up top.
  10. LuvDaBears

    LuvDaBears New Member

    Sep 4, 2002
    Heard from a friend last night the story of how Vedad ended up at SLU, and why he came in under the radar so to speak.

    Apparently the kid is a refugee from Bosnia, and Donigan found him playing soccer in a city park in St. Louis. He became friends with the kid (Gee, I wonder why), and then got him to play on a so-so club team in St. Louis (not Busch, or Gallagher). The kid never played ODP, didn't go to ESP, so Donigan could keep him under the radar. Then, after he's signed, sealed and delivered to SLU, all of a sudden Vedad is playing for a top club, etc.

    College recruiting is really slimy.
  11. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    Kinley, I kinda figured you'd know that there is more to soccer than scoring goals. Brad Friedel and Tony Meola won the Hermann - how many goals did they score?

    Buete is listed because, as a defensive MF, he's as good as any in the country. He obviously doesn't have the offensive numbers, but that's in large part because he isn't an offensive player. How many goals do Pablo Mastroeni or Chris Armas (this past weekend withstanding) score? But, they are among the best players in the league and our country.

    I'm not saying Buete is as good as those guys, but he does his job at this level as well as they do it at their's. The award isn't for best scorer but for best college player and unless we are only going to consider attacking players for the award, I think defensive midfielders need to be considered. One of the reasons I included the teams' records and the gaa's for the defensive players is there are other ways to judge a player.

    As for Stammler, Maryland has the best defense in the country (no offense to ODU) and he is their top back. He or Buete are the MVPs for the No. 2 team in the country. For those reasons, he's on the list.

    Comparing him to Jeff Tuman is insulting to Stammler and most of us here. Lots of backs don't score goals but that doesn't mean they aren't among the best backs. I don't think Carlos Llamosa has scored more than 2-3 or goals in 7 MLS seasons but there he was on the national team over backs like Steve Jolley or Mike Petke who do score. As the organizer of Maryland's defense, he doesn't go forward as much, and, at 5-10, he's not really a threat on set-pieces like bigger backs arem which explains the lack of goals.

    Johnson is listed because he leads the nation in assists. Creating goals is just as important as scoring them and leading the nation in assists shouldn't be ignored. Admitedly, I don't think he'll win the award because he hasn't poked a couple home, but he is helping his team score, doing it consistently, and, more importantly, helping his team win. For those reasons, he gets considered.

    Like I said on the first post, you don't have to agree with these and I welcome the debate. I'm not saying you're wrong, Kinley, but you asked why I listed them and this is why.
  12. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    I'm not going to argue that college recruiting isn't slimy, but I will argue that Donnigan did something slimy as I think a pretty good case could be made that Vedad is in a good place because of Donnigan's efforts. Yeah, it was self-serving but what coach isn't self serving?

    But, Vedad is now getting a good education at a good school and in position to be scouted by pro teams across the country and, in some cases, a few international clubs.

    As good as Vedad is, he might have remained toiling in the ethnic leagues in St. Louis if Donnigan hadn't stepped in. Yes, you could argue he could have steered him towards Gallagher or Busch earlier but I'd say things ended up pretty well for the kid.

    BTW, I was going to include Vedad on this list but didn't because he's a freshman and, as I said earlier, the only way a frosh wins this award is if he's head and shoulders above the rest of the field and, as good as Vedad is, he isn't that far above the field.

    That said, I'll be very curious to see if goes to MLS (or Europe) next year. I'm sure he still has things to work on in college ball but I'm guessing his family isn't that well off and while an education will go far, he can make money now playing soccer. He certainly has a pro body and pro skill so it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
  13. soccertom

    soccertom New Member

    Jun 2, 1999
    The above post is about 10% fact and 90% fiction.

    Vedad is a Bosnian Refugee and he did resettle in Saint Louis with his family in 1999. That is were the truth of the above post ends.

    Vedad played High School soccer in St. Louis for Roosevelt High School in the PHL League and popped in 24 Goals his Senior year. Vedad was a St. Louis Area All-Metro High School performer as recognized by the St. Louis Post Dispatch. Vedad played Club Soccer for the highly regarded Busch Soccer program and was well known throughout the St. Louis area as a terrific player. Vedad also competed in the 2003 McDonald’s All-America game scoring a goal for the winning West side after being set up by fellow SLU recruit Alex Matteson. Ibesivic was also recognized as one of Soccer America’s Top 25 recruits.
  14. KinleyDog

    KinleyDog New Member

    Aug 20, 2003
    S'nM, i wasn't trying to insult anyone, nor put you on the spot. i just thought those that i indicated out of your list seemed a bit out of the mix because of the statitistics that were listed. i don't doubt that they're good players. i know first hand that beute is a workhorse. there are many def mid fielders that have 2 goals and 2 assists so there must be something else about beute that makes him special. i agree with you, whatever that is, it should be recognized. thanks for the info on the others too.
  15. LuvDaBears

    LuvDaBears New Member

    Sep 4, 2002
    Thanks Tom...I guess my friend got his facts messed up...thanks for straightening it out. He seemed plugged in and he's been in the soccer community a while so I figured he had accurate info.
    Maybe he's just upset because his school didn't get Vedad! That guy is a real baller.
  16. cantona24

    cantona24 New Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    For what it's worth, St. Louis has a HUGE Bosnian population, so Doniger may be developing a pipeline to the SLU program.

    Elmar has the CASL, Doniger the Bosnian pipeline
  17. LuvDaBears

    LuvDaBears New Member

    Sep 4, 2002
    cantona...no big deal really, but its Donigan, not Doniger.

    Speaking of the CASL pipeline, how many of those CASL freshmen will be with the team next season, in your opinion? How many will quit, how many will transfer, etc. Looks like the only kid who's getting significant clock is Hughes, filling in for Ford. Doesn't Elmar figure that he's going to lose 5 or 6 players every year? I'm told that he factors that in each season.
  18. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    LDB, while we're quibbling, Mike Harrington has started all 13 games for UNC this year, Ted Odgers has started several games - more than Hughes - and David Boole has been a spot starter.

    Of the frosh CASL kids, the ones who haven't played yet are Fortier, Superville, Shandley, Darby, O'Neal and Showers.
  19. myshap

    myshap Member

    Jun 19, 2002
    Columbus Crew
    Didn't David Wagenfuhr just sign a contract with Middlesboro?
  20. soccertom

    soccertom New Member

    Jun 2, 1999
    St. Louis does indeed have a huge Bosnian population. I think St. Louis is one of the largest Bosnian refugee centers in the United States. Something close to 30,000+. SLU has had one other transplanted Bosnian Vedad Alagic who had a solid 4 year career @ SLU. Alagic graduated in 2001 I think. I'm pretty sure that these 2 are the only 2 to play Division 1 soccer coming out of the St. Louis area. A couple others have played pro indoors with the Steamers or Ambush. Another 10 or 15 Bosnians have played in the lower NCAA classes or NAIA.
  21. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001

    The kid who just signed with Middlesboro is Peter Gerstenberger, a 16 year old from New York.
  22. thurd

    thurd New Member

    Jul 31, 2001
    Melrose, MA
    from what ive seen, it appears as if oregon state plays gordon and findley/cornejo up front as forwards and johnson withdrawn as an attacking mid...just my opinion
  23. LuvDaBears

    LuvDaBears New Member

    Sep 4, 2002
    Sandon...thanks for the update on the casl kids. I don't really consider Harrington one of them, because he played for the club maybe one season before going to residency in Bradenton...but technically you are correct. My bad.

    From what I've seen, Hughes is the best player of the bunch, although Harrington is quite good too as a flank player.

    soccertom...I checked with my friend, and what you posted is naturally correct about Vedad, but if I'm not mistaken, he was already committed to SLU before the McDonald's game, and before he started playing for Busch. Also, don't you find it strange that he wouldn't be invited to ESP? My friend told me last night that he was one of the two best players in that McDonald's game. A player that good should have been invited to ESP.

    Actually this brings up a good point about ESP. There are so many good players who don't get invited, because you have to have a sponsor to get in the thing. So let's say Coach Joe at X University knows about a kid with great potential. He's not going to sponsor that kid, because all the other coaches will get to see him.
  24. cantona24

    cantona24 New Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    My bad with the SLU coach's name.

    As far as the CASL kids, Hughes has been unbelievable--no one expected him to contribute this well this early. Harrington is a quasi-CASL kid, and is going to be really good. He has incredibly quick feet and does well on the outside. Could be a Matt Crawford type with arguably way more talent. Though he would have to have the work rate/smarts of Crawford.

    Boole has played some and hasn't really impressed, though I think he'll stick. Haven't seen much of the others, though Odgers will probably be around for another year, despite the fact that he got burned some in the beginning. Wouldn't be surprised to see a couple drop off...happens every year.
  25. SouthernSoccerScene

    SouthernSoccerScene New Member

    Feb 14, 2003
    From the CASL team that were high school seniors a year ago, the only players who have seen regular time have been Odgers (who had been a regular starter at right back at one point) and Hughes (who has split time in goal with Williams). Boole is a fringe guy who will only see less and less time as a reserve right midfielder as time goes on, and the rest of that group will probably not see much of a game.

    Harrington is from CASL, although he didn't play with that team. He graduated a year early from high school, and played on the team the year younger from that group.

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