help on rule interpertation

Discussion in 'Referee' started by ion_, Jun 29, 2005.

  1. ion_

    ion_ New Member

    Aug 10, 2004
    in law 12 regarding goalie offences:
    "An indirect free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a goalkeeper, inside his own penalty area, commits any of the following four offences:
    3. touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate;"

    what is the definition of a kick? does a knee, thigh or shin count as a kick?
     
  2. NJ Ref

    NJ Ref New Member

    Jan 28, 2005
    Central New Jersey
    Ahhhh! The old “passback” rule!

    Can’t quote rule/law, or something in writing, however I do remember in a clinic that from the knee down is considered the “foot.” I will tell you that there are those who claim it is the foot only. Someone told me that the almighty Jim Allen had commented that the ball must come from the foot…anything above doesn’t count.

    Note that a deflection off the foot would NOT be considered a “foul” once the keeper touched the ball. That is what is meant by deliberate…not deflected…but deliberately kicked. It has nothing to do with the intention of the kicker.
     
  3. ion_

    ion_ New Member

    Aug 10, 2004
    i understand the delibrate part.

    it becomes debatable when a player delibrately sends it back to the keeper using a knee and the keeper handles it.
     
  4. blech

    blech Member+

    Jun 24, 2002
    California
  5. GKbenji

    GKbenji Member+

    Jan 24, 2003
    Fort Collins CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The knee is not a foot. No infraction there IMHO.

    The shin is a bit more of a grey area, but I figure if a player can deliberately shin a ball back to the keeper, more power to them. Just hope it's not an own goal. :)

    Advice to Referees says:

    "The requirement that the ball be kicked means only that it has been played with the foot."
     
  6. spartanpele

    spartanpele New Member

    Feb 17, 2005
    IMHO, ...unless I'm not understanding this corectly....the only reasonable passes back that a GK can pick up are ones from the head, chest or stomache. All others (shin, knee, thigh), would be considered an infraction.

    The easiest way to remember this is: above the waist (not including the arms)=fine; below the waist=illegal.

    And of course, a deflection, poor clearance or misque would not constitute a pass-back as the original intention was for the ball to go somewhere else.

    Best of luck....
     
  7. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No the thigh is permitted.
     
  8. Sagy

    Sagy New Member

    Aug 6, 2004
    I'm confused. My understanding is that the intention is a not a factor. If the pass (kick) was a deliberate action then the goalie can't use his hand (regardless of the indented target of the pass). If the ball was deflected (not a deliberate action) the goalie can pick the ball up.
     
  9. Statesman

    Statesman New Member

    Sep 16, 2001
    The name says it all
    You are right, Sagy. There is a subtle difference between "deliberate" and "intentional." The word "deliberate" describes the action in of itself, not the result of the action. The word "intentional" describes what the result of the action was meant to be.

    No defender would ever intend for a goalkeeper to pick the ball up after passing it to him!
     
  10. refmike

    refmike New Member

    Dec 10, 2003
    Cal North
    The question is "what is a kick"

    Jim Allen (almighty or otherwise, he IS the voice of USSF) has stated that a kick is "striking with the foot".
    This was ment to apply to free kicks but I think it applies here, too.

    Only something off the shoe would count for a kickback. (excepting when the shoe has momentarily come off) :)
    It does include any ball from one defenders foot that makes it to the keeper via other defenders without some contact by an attacker.
     
  11. spartanpele

    spartanpele New Member

    Feb 17, 2005
  12. chrisrun

    chrisrun Member

    Jan 13, 2004
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The ball must be kicked back to the keeper in order for it to be an infraction. In general, that means the foot. If the ball is taking a slight bounce, and it hits off the defender's ankle or shin rather than the foot, I still view that as a deliberate kick back to the keeper. The knee and above is OK, as this is not a kick.

    The shin area just below the knee is a gray area. If it looked like they were trying to knee it back and it hit the upper shin, I wouldn't call it. If it was more sticking the leg out to kick it without it hitting the foot, but still in a "kicking" manner, I would probably call that.
     
  13. chrisrun

    chrisrun Member

    Jan 13, 2004
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Orlando City SC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Note that on the following page, Decision 3 states "a player may pass the ball to his own goalkeeper using his head or chest or knee, etc."

    Thus the knee and above is OK. The foot is not OK. The only questionalble area is the shin. IMO, a judgement call for the ref to make, whether the player "kicked" the ball or not.
     
  14. MidwestRef

    MidwestRef New Member

    Feb 8, 2004
    Iowa
    I just checked the USSF Advice to Referees. ATR specifically states that the requirements for calling the infraction include the FOOT playing the ball (not a direct quote). In other words, any intentional play with a legal body part above the foot (shin, knee, etc.) is permissible.

    Of course, if trickery is involved (for example, lifting the ball from the foot to the head), have your yellow card handy to caution the offending player.
     
  15. colins1993

    colins1993 Member

    Mar 1, 2001
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I cannot ever recall seeing a player deliberately "kicking" a ball with their shin.
    I have seen it happen accidentily with very young players but never in any sort of competitive match.

    I guess there is a first time time for everything though.
     
  16. NJ Ref

    NJ Ref New Member

    Jan 28, 2005
    Central New Jersey
    But herein lies the problem…what is the definition of “FOOT?” And before you answer, think of the definition of “HAND” when it comes to handling…the hand starts at the shoulder!
     
  17. HeadHunter

    HeadHunter Member

    May 28, 2003
    Alternate question on this issue:

    Ball is crossed into area, defender traps the with their feet gains clear control over the ball, keeper runs in and picks it off the defenders foot. Any infraction?

    Add a slight wrinkle- trap is not great but still an intentional touch-just result not what was perfectly intended, ball goes a foot or so to defenders side towards keeper, keep picks up ball. Any infraction?
     
  18. rippingood

    rippingood Member

    Feb 13, 2004
    LosAngeles
    Club:
    Liverpool LFC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This came up on another site - the ruling was that stopping the ball with the bottom of the foot constitutes a kick. If it's deliberate, then it's an IFK if the keeper picks it up...
     
  19. Stan

    Stan New Member

    Aug 23, 2002
    PA
    Agreed... remember, it is perfectly legal to kick the ball back to ones own goalkeeper. The infraction occurs when the goalkeeper handles the ball, not when it is passed to him, unless the passer uses trickery (passes the ball with his foot to another part of his body) to try to make the goalkeeper's subsequent handling of the ball legal. Thus, the goalkeeper has to decide if the ball is one that can be handled, or not.
     
  20. davidjd

    davidjd Member

    Jun 30, 2000
    Wilmington, NC
    This is rediculous. You're telling me that referees have to make judgement calls? Next you'll tell me we're supposed wear socks while working!

    Honestly, I've always thought this was one of the most straight forward laws out there. Use basic logic here and you're fine. (By basic I mean think of Clinton might try to interpret the law and then step back to reality.)

    -davidjd
     
  21. nsa

    nsa Member+

    New England Revolution; Boston Breakers
    United States
    Feb 22, 1999
    Notboston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Foot is ankle down.

    Essentially below the shin guard, although any 'keeper that handles a pass from a teammate's shin is risking a call (as can be seen from some earlier opinions here).



    The more interesting discussion on this Law involves deliberate passes that are not directly to the 'keeper, yet placed so that the 'keeper may run over to pick up the ball. For example, a pass by a defender under pressure, kicked towards the goal line with just enough pace that it allows the 'keeper to run over to prevent the corner kick.

    This must be sanctioned under Law 12, even though the pass was not "to" the 'keeper. So many youth soccer refs will penalize the "shin pass", yet they allow the deliberate circumvention of the Law in this manner.
     
  22. nsa

    nsa Member+

    New England Revolution; Boston Breakers
    United States
    Feb 22, 1999
    Notboston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  23. MidwestRef

    MidwestRef New Member

    Feb 8, 2004
    Iowa
    For me, anything from the ankle bone to the foot is considered part of the foot. I think that you'd be able to tell if the foot made contact fairly easily. Let's not try to make this more difficult than it really is - if you feel like the foot kicked the ball to the keeper and he/she handled it, call it.

    Of course, the way some kids wear shin guards, the foot may start mid-shin! :)
     
  24. MidwestRef

    MidwestRef New Member

    Feb 8, 2004
    Iowa
    First case, I'd have to look at the defender. If he looked back at the keeper and trapped the ball, that MIGHT be an infraction.

    Second case, I'd let it go. This is a situation where I would err in the defense's favor if I'm not sure. I'd treat this situation like I do offside - if I'm not 100% sure that it was an intentional passback, I'd let it go.
     
  25. colins1993

    colins1993 Member

    Mar 1, 2001
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Example number one is most definetely an IFK going in. I've seen it called many times in Europe.

    Example number two could or could not be. I would factor in the age/skil level of play to make my decision.
     

Share This Page