Of course he was... he clocked at nearly 35kmh. He was only of the few player who could go toe on toe in speed with someone like Bellerin for example. You are underrating Neymar, Neymar's acceleration, agility, hability to carry the ball with both legs, tricks, north=>south pace... all Neymar was large superior to Figo.
This seems like an exercise in futility. Please bear with me, because it took me a while to find the necessary article where Sky Sports freely use the phrase dribbles, when the numbers quite clearly suggest that what they actually mean is dribbles and runs. McALLISTER - THE BEST SUMMER SIGNING? | Football News | Sky Sports There isn't a single mention of "dribbles and runs" anywhere. Yet a 35 year old Gary McAllister is mentioned as having 415 dribble attempts in a single EPL campaign. What are we supposed to extrapolate from this particular data-set? What are we doing here? Google for any piece of trivia or data that sheds players we admire in a good light, or actually trying to fill in the gaps of our knowledge? Again, I truly believe that out of date Sky Sports articles with very unclear terminologies and data-sets that are impossible to cross-reference is being used more for annoyance than debate at this point in time. The key distinction between Luis Figo and Neymar in terms of their dribbling potency, for me at least, is not necessarily their dribbling fundamentals, or the number of ball touches, or the peak speed at which they travel with the ball. It is Neymar's explosiveness and the way in which he seems to burst into action. This is what I meant by a faster frame-rate, as in the actions he performs seems super sudden in nature, even if the end peak-speed he reaches isn't anything noteworthy in the grand scale of things (not that he is slow at all). This is more evident from dribbles from standstill, where as Luis Figo that I remember, tries to use the momentum of his opponents, and their centre of gravity against them. There are styles of dribbling Luis Figo might be more competent at, but once you factor in everything, and just inspect their threat on the dribble, I think it is Neymar that comes out on top. I just want to ask, if we just inspect the dribbles alone, not what ends up happening afterwards, (since Luis Figo is such a godlike crosser of the ball) and just tried to measure the gained advantage on the pitch through their dribbles (from the starting position to the end of the dribble), would Luis Figo really come out on top? Let's say Luis Figo suddenly has the crossing capabilities of Kyle Walker, or an average level winger with mediocre crossing. Would him wrong-footing a fullback, and gaining space and time to cross accurately with his wicked right-foot, change the general state of play on the pitch, as much as the usual sort of dribbles Neymar would make? I think Neymar has the type of dribbling talent that makes him almost world-class with that trait alone (meaning his dribbling is all-timer level), whereas Luis Figo is someone who uses his other great traits, and incorporates it into his world-class dribbling ability. Luis Figo probably was the world's best dribbler at one point in time, but I do not think he can claim to be better than Neymar on this front alone.
With all due respect this extremely poor research on your part. I’d like to think that because there is absolutely no way you read that article and came to the conclusion you just did except if you didn’t read it at all in the first place or you just blatantly lied. Gary McAllister never played for Tottenham Hotspur they are clearly talking about David Ginola The Aston Villa man who previously played for Tottenham Aston Villa’s new flamboyant purchase who previously played for Tottenham And yes David Ginola was absolutely a prolific dribbler Relatively weak on output(goals+assists)compared to the other top tier wingers of his generation but one of the very best at dribbling in 1999(his last year at Tottenham) The exact same year he attempted those 415 dribbles The season prior (1998/99)He was the PFA winner. the exact same year Manchester United won the first treble in English football history https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...r-of-the-year-1999-david-ginola/39271812.html And it can’t be emphasised enough that he played for the Tottenham Ginola Scored 3 league goals in 98/99 and 4 in 99/00 Clearly he was doing something extraordinary outside of goals to compensate. Johan Cruyff was not a idiot and he is known for ridiculing those circus clowns who do tricks with no end product(my interpretation) Johan Cruyff: “Technique is not being able to juggle a ball 1000 times. Anyone can do that by practicing. Then you can work in the circus. Technique is passing the ball with one touch, with the right speed, at the right foot of your team mate.”— Quotes of Cruyff (@Cruyff_Quotes) December 10, 2017 If he is rating a winger with only 3 league goals this highly than you can bet that the same player is definitely doing something otherworldly outside of goals. That is closer to being a fact then a mere assumption.
Poor reading comprehension aside, do you legitimately believe that the lack of the phrase "dribbles and runs", and a number alone can be used to assert notions that you freely used for Luis Figo? I don't. There is a stark difference between stating that David Ginola was one of the top dribblers the English Premier League has ever seen, and stating that he had seasonal performances with OPTA criteria dribble attempts that comfortably blows every single modern-day player out of the water, English Premier League or otherwise. Honestly, is the first thing that comes to your mind, when you see the number 415 dribble attempts in a single league campaign, that it must be more or less compliant with the nature of the tallying we see today, and it is my hate for David Ginola that blinds me? Seriously, I am hating the nature of the argument, and the data-set used, not the players. You can use this to promote the players I used to adore personally, and I would still say they are not representative of the OPTA figures we are familiar with today. This truly is an exercise in futility. Sorry for wasting our collective time.
You are looking at it only one way the first issue is i sense that you don’t even entertain the mere possibility that David Ginola(arguably the best ever dribbler above 6ft) could be a hazard esque talent in terms of dribbling(for me better btw) Now what if Eden hazard in his dribbling prime let’s say in 2014/15 solely focused on ball carrying and functional dribbling to the detriment of his other qualities(scoring in particular or should I say getting into goal scoring positions) Now going even further than this what if Hazard 14/15 was solely confined to the flank with only the full back(s) to beat and tasked with only delivering crosses and occasionally tracking back(although I don’t recall Ginola being famed for his defensive ability anyways maybe @PDG1978 can fill in?) what if hazard was awarded this level of tactical freedom? How many more dribbles could he attempt? Is there a cap?
It seems like Kyle Walker has a recorded sprint speed of 37.31 kph, Mbappe 36 kph, Marc Overmars a suggested 36 ish kph (Usain Bolt 45 kph though!), but I don't know about young Figo so it's still a bit hard for me to say I'm sure he was clearly less quick than Neymar. Neymar when he is without the ball, and in his best shape/fitness, has been capable of getting up to quite a speed evidently anyway though so I won't say I'm sure he was close either. It seems like the consensus is Roberto Carlos was a bit quicker than Figo in Barcelona vs Real Madrid games, though Figo is cited by him as a very difficult opponent in general.
I think on this topic we just don't know the answer for sure either (neither that the dribble numbers are dribbles only and use the exact same OPTA criteria we see referred to now, or that they definitely are not). Ginola certainly wasn't renowned for helping the full-back, and generally wasn't expected to do that though, that's true (and as SayWhatIWant alluded to the other thing to consider is different approach to the game by teams or specific players - the pass numbers going up while the dribble numbers go down would not be a shock I suppose in general): David Ginola: The charisma, the skill and why he is revered among Newcastle United fans - Chronicle Live David Pleat: My dream team as a manager after 50 years in football | Football tactics | The Guardian
He was faster 3 years later(2006/07) and probably his absolute fastest in 2010(aged 25) Here he is blowing away Chelsea in 2006 (including Arjen Robben hanging on for dear life) And Robben(albeit several years later) was clocked with fastest speed in World Cup history vs Spain I believe.
Yeah, although Overmars was possibly/probably faster at a young age too: I see Google says Claudio Caniggia has a speed of 36.4 kph recorded now: The article it comes from does allude to your mate indeed having 40 kph (surely not still at 37 - I guess that's a separate comment) Unmatched Soccer Players Unveiled: The 7 Speed Demons Across Generations - SportPesa Tanzania I suppose on the football pitch how quickly somebody can get up to speed, how long they can stay close to it, and how close to top speed they can dribble are all relevant....
The two fastest elite players I have probably ever seen are claudio caniggia and Oleh blokhin I mean with the ball of course In any case before Tropeiro aka ‘Mr autism’(the only ‘swear word’ he knows in the English language) gets carried away. neither Neymar or Figo are in this conversation(fastest with or without the ball) whatever perceived advantage Neymar has over Figo in terms of speed is negligible at best. Better nip this in the bud as they say before he takes this one step further. That next step being that he says Neymar is one of the fastest attackers of all time and that is grade A bullshit that I frankly don’t want to read.
Caniggia gets a mention with a 10.5 seconds 100m time here I see (but yeah he was certainly rapid with the ball too, which I suppose Messi was also in terms of closeness to his top speed, Brian Laudrup probably also, and Kaka if allowed to be knocking the ball quite far ahead with each touch maybe) how quick were olden time players in terms of kmph/mph?? | RedCafe.net Des Walker, mentioned there, was actually majorly out-paced by Overmars in that 1993 match with the Netherlands, although there did used be a chant before that "you'll never beat Des Walker" (even if some guys like Gary Lineker did sometimes manage to sprint away from him). I think he was less quick than team-mate Franz Carr during the 1980s anyway too. This page has Thierry Henry on 39kmh top speed (Adoma Traore less but surely with more acceleration from the start - elsewhere he seems to be cited on as high as 37khm himself which is more than 22mph stated there) Footballers who could have been Olympic sprinters from Thierry Henry to Adama Traore - Daily Star Anyway, yeah, Neymar won't be the fastest of all-time or particularly close to that, but might be quicker than I had assumed potentially (I would have doubted he was quicker than young Figo initially when I first thought about it anyway, but yeah I don't think we have a definite guide as to how wrong that might or might not be). I should acknowledge that I do understand the gist of what @Letmepost was saying about the effect of Figo being a top dribbler and top crosser too in terms of how full backs will be approaching him etc....which he was originally saying as a plus point for Figo of course (I think it's always the case that dribblers benefit from the possibility they do something else though - I found it harder to dribble in that game called Knockout or Cup-tees or Wembley or whatever else anyone calls it (basically each player out of several trying to score a goal past a goalkeeper and in the singles version obviously there being no team-mate to pass to so it's a matter of dribbling and shooting only in effect) than when playing 6-a-side, 11-a-side etc where there is always the option to pass, cross etc!). On the flip side it can also help with crossing I suppose, that Figo was also a top dribbler (but for sure I think he was always very good at crossing and it became really a big part of his game around the end of the 1990s and early 2000s including from Beckham-esque positions - I found the younger Figo more fun to watch overall I'd say though).
We can pretty much agree that David Ginola was a proficient dribbler. That is not the topic at hand, it is whether his Sky Sports dribbling reports can be used in direct comparison with more conservative tallying of OPTA dribbles. The dribbling statistics for David Ginola for the 1999/2000 EPL season has been counted using the standards belonging to the more recent OPTA definitions. 👟 Allan Saint-Maximin has completed 1️⃣1️⃣6️⃣ dribbles this season, the most by a Frenchman in a PL season since David Ginola in 1999/00 (131) 🇫🇷#BHANEW pic.twitter.com/DZdoMGlgLb— Premier League (@premierleague) July 20, 2020 131 successful dribbles is the figure quoted by the English Premier League Twitter account, and it seems way more aligned with the kind of tallying that OPTA does for modern day players. This is in stark contrast to mind-boggling numbers Sky Sports reports like 291 successful dribbles or 415 dribble attempts, for the same player and the relevant season in question. These are figures that comfortably towers over any player including a younger Lionel Messi. As seen above, the same performance can lead to a 222% increase if we start applying Sky Sports standards. Most of the articles do mention the phrase "dribbles and runs", but some do not, and Sky Sports interchanged the terminologies freely and without much caution. I certainly would not recommend pretending these statistics align with modern day OPTA tallying of dribbles, to argue that David Ginola was superior to Eden Hazard in terms of dribbling. For the real crux of the matter, I think Neymar has the kind of recoil and spring in his step, that boggles the defenders to a degree that Luis Figo cannot match in my opinion. This trait is best seen when both players are at a standstill, and Neymar can suddenly jolt past his marker in a manner Luis Figo cannot. Peak speed at which they travel with the ball, was not at all what I was personally referencing to. Jeremy Doku was like 71st in terms of recorded top speed in the English Premier League last season, but he is also super explosive and packs a sudden jolt of movement that differentiates himself from other players. It is a key feature of his dribbling success. I am not discussing the peak speed measured when these players are in their full stride, but the explosive movement with which they can burst into action. In that particular aspect, the difference between the two is much larger than the subtle nature of their touches. This is what I meant when I said Neymar was simply born with more as a dribbler.
To begin a few comments: Sheer dribbling volume is a reflection of usage and playstyle. It may be at best a good correlate of dribbling ability, but certainly not the equivalent. Dribbling is a complex task that incorporates multiple variables - namely, applicability, difficulty, quality, consistency, problem resolution, etc. To reduce it to a volume stat reflects a very poor understanding of the sport. I have seen no indication that Opta revisited pre-2003/04 seasons. It would be a monumental task requiring resources that are unlikely to generate profit. They are likely publishing old datasets - besides WC/Euro which are re-visits. The best way to use stats is to control for counfounding variables. Standard deviations from comparable players / rankings within a particular era is probably the best indicator for volume / playstyle. You cannot compare players from 1970s running into acres of space vs. Doku repeatedly taking on the same man at the edge of the box. These are not comparable. Therefore, attempts at cross-era comparisons is fundamentally backwards.
so now the premier league twitter page claims access to all the dribbles completed by French players since the end of 20th century? even though on their own official website they claim data is not available for dribbles by any player before 2009/10 Ginolas statistics(beyond goals and assists)for 1999/00 are also completely blank. https://www.premierleague.com/players/1083/David-Ginola/stats?co=1&se=8 So they update it on their Twitter page 4 years ago but fail to update it on their main website? There is nothing conclusive here that you’ve presented(again) Opta is also NOT directly or indirectly referenced anywhere in that PL tweet And we are discussing Opta data aren’t we not? I’m just curious How many games and/or highlights have the people dismissing Figo here actually seen? The only one who can say Neymar is definitely more capable than Luis Figo in X are those fans who have a healthy amount of knowledge regarding both players careers(beyond Wikipedia and one or two YouTube compilations)
Measurement and analysis of the confounding variables can, and should be separate. I take huge issue with the measurement itself. The numbers are not the truth, but to use faulty numbers to thrust what you believe to be the truth, and then have the audacity to say the issue was never simple enough to be decided by numbers alone is pure bullshit. Why use the numbers in the first place? As a propaganda props for your version of the truth?
Old "Dribbles" Dataset from Opta published in 2000 compared with their revisited numbers published on SofaScore Recent Dataset: Zidane 24 dribbles (67%) Overmars 8 dribbles (44%) Thuram 12 dribbles (75%) Henry 19 dribbles (56%) Gronkjaer 8 dribbles (42%) Willmots 6 dribbles (55%) Figo 14 dribbles (61%) Djorkaeff 7 dribbles (50%) Zenden 10 dribbles (59%) Recent Dribbling dataset for Figo Euro 1996 4.0 successful dribbles p90 (59%) 73.3 touches/90 Euro 2000 3.5 successful dribbles p90 (61%) 84.8 touches/90 World Cup 2002 1.7 successful dribbles p90 (36%) 77 touches/90 Euro 2004 4.5 successful dribbles p90 (63%) 70.8 touches/90 Champions League 03-04 4.3 successful dribbles p90 (60%) 82.2 touches/90 Champions League 04-05 3.9 successful dribbles p90 (60%) 89.6 touches/90 Champions League 05/06 1.8 successful dribbles p90 (37%) 61.9 touches/90 World Cup 2006 2 successful dribbles p90 (50%) 61.7touches/90
These are just numbers people published. The English Premier League Twitter account. Old Sky Sports reports by journalists. I just happen to think one aligns with the modern day criteria set by OPTA more closely. Which is why I think liberal comparison with OPTA numbers, and numbers from sources that has been shown to be misaligned with current day OPTA standards, is not to be recommended. Wyscout dribble numbers are valid, just not when represented as being measurements of the same actions as OPTA dribbles. The same can be said for older Sky Sports measurements for "dribbles and runs" and articles that mention dribbles but really are referencing "dribbles and runs". That is what I sincerely believe. Of course I cannot prove it, however, if money was on the line, I believe you would bet on this side of the argument also. 415 dribble attempts in a single season of the English Premier League. Plausible? Yes. Is it much more likely to be a conclusion that comes from a totally different tallying system that is often labelled as "dribbles and runs"? I think this is the more likely explanation.
Based on a biased dataset (toward Neymar) which excludes Figo's peak years Normalizing peak seasons in dataset on a per 100 touch basis: Figo at Euro 2004 at 31 years of age dribbled at a rate of 6.4 successful dribbles per 100 touches with a success of 63% completion. Comparatively, Neymar at 31 years of age dribbled at a rate of 2.7 successful dribbles per 100 touches with a success of 54% completion. Neymar's peak within the dataset at age 28: dribbled at a rate of 7.4 successful dribbles per 100 touches with a success of 65% completion. I think this supports the notion that Figo was the more capable dribbler. It certainly repudiates in all likelihood that Neymar was more prolific. Neymar Champions League 22-23 (roughly 31 years old) 2.3 successful dribbles per 90 86.3 touches/90 World Cup 2022 (30) 2 successful dribbles per 90 (32%) 80.0 touches/90 Champions League 21-22 (30) 2.3 successful dribbles per 90 (58%) 61.3 touches/90 Champions League 20-21 (29) 3.7 successful dribbles per 90 (52%) 71.6 touches/90 Champions League 19-20 (28) 6.1 successful dribbles per 90 (65%) 82 touches/90 Champions League 18-19 (27) 5.3 successful dribbles per 90 (59%) 89 touches/90 World Cup 2018 (26) 4.4 successful dribbles per 90 (56%) 89.6 touches/90 Recent Dribbling dataset for Figo Euro 1996 (23) 4.0 successful dribbles p90 (59%) 73.3 touches/90 Euro 2000 (27) 3.5 successful dribbles p90 (61%) 84.8 touches/90 World Cup 2002 (29) 1.7 successful dribbles p90 (36%) 77 touches/90 Euro 2004 (31) 4.5 successful dribbles p90 (63%) 70.8 touches/90 Champions League 03-04 (31) 4.3 successful dribbles p90 (60%) 82.2 touches/90 Champions League 04-05 (32) 3.9 successful dribbles p90 (60%) 89.6 touches/90 Champions League 05/06 (33) 1.8 successful dribbles p90 (37%) 61.9 touches/90 World Cup 2006 (roughly 33 years old) 2 successful dribbles p90 (50%) 61.7touches/90
This page does assign the dribbles&runs label to the 291 figure, but indicates it as the number of attempts: SHOULD GINOLA BE A VILLAIN? | Football News | Sky Sports It says 'forays with the ball'. I'd still be uncertain exactly how things were being measured and if dribbles was ever separated out from runs. The OPTA data now on Sofascore for Euro 2000 that SayWahtIWant posted can indicate 3 'runs' by Zidane during Euro 2000 in theory or it could be that the new dribbles definition is different to the old one and the numbers being close is a coincidence. The Premier League tweet can be incorrectly assuming that the old and new dribbles data is comparable. However if it was the correct number of successful dribbles&runs (as opposed to just dribbles) that would give Ginola a success rate of 45% that season (hard to be sure this is the case though and that they haven't been given a number for dribbles alone or some dataset that aligns more with the current dribbles definition even, although it's unlikely OPTA would revisit whole seasons and make new data...and not publicise it much themselves).
Having said that, the plot thickens with this post because Thierry Henry (also French) has 175 ish successful dribbles and runs in Premier League 2002/03 according to OPTA's older data seemingly: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/greatest-dribbler-ever.2131181/page-2#post-42423847 EDIT - Yeah 2002/03 season, with 3 Arsenal games yet to play (so not quite full season data at that point): 2002–03 Arsenal F.C. season - Wikipedia Whether this means the Ginola numbers are dribbles only and/or are based on the current dribbles definition (the 131 successes I mean) is hard to be sure. The Premier League tweet can be incorrect in theory.
Sorry, I read that again and now think it does mean 291 successful dribbles&runs by Ginola in 1999/2000 by the way. I had been confused by the part about embarking on them (thinking it meant attempts) but the previous paragraph refers to successful dribbles&runs indeed (and the 291 number is then inserted following on from that, implying that is the number of successful forays as they put it I think....). What I don't know is if that 131 successful dribbles number has any relation to the 291 number at all (it would seem unlikely it means he had 160 'runs' recorded I would think probably).
291 out of 415 would be 70% success rate for Ginola's 1999/2000 'dribbles and runs' anyway I suppose for what it's worth.
Sky Sports reporting OPTA data for Steve McManaman in La Liga (for example 4.4 successful 'dribbles and runs' per 90 minutes in 2000/01 - the data is La Liga only I think it's clear even if the Transfermarkt cited minutes played number is 10 minutes different for that for him that season): OPTA JURY: STEVE McMANAMAN | Football News | Sky Sports
It's speculative on my part but I'm wondering if OPTA changed from counting 'forays' (albeit that word was printed by Sky Sports and not directly by OPTA) i.e dribbles & runs (with dribbles having an older meaning - the full run with the ball regardless of number of players passed?) to now counting 'take-ons' (attempts to take the ball past or around a player, now considered to be individual dribble attempts). In theory a successful dribble or run could have been registered on every occasion a player began to run forwards with the ball if that run ended without him being tackled or otherwise losing the ball (without shooting/passing/crossing - the success of those things being judged separately as it is now too). EDIT - Alternatively dribbles may have had a similar definition to now (but on other pages the success % has at least been related to dribbles and runs, so maybe the dribble success on that page re: McManaman is in effect a dribbles&runs success % too without specifically saying so) and runs were added in (runs past opponents with the ball without dribbling past them as such?). Who knows?!
Finally re: the historic Sky/OPTA links: "Opta Index Limited was founded in 1996 to analyse Premier League football matches and was contracted by Sky Sports for their television broadcasts of the 1996–97 season. The following season, Opta became the official statistics provider for the league itself and became sponsored by Carling." Stats Perform - Wikipedia